I haven't really noticed either the ISU or the Elefant in "high level" games (I'm not pretentious, I swear) in quite a while. The ISU-152 does make the occasional appearance but it's not as amazingly OP as it used to be. I don't think I've seen the Elefant in a serious 2v2 since it was nerfed to 70 range.
My biggest problem with the ISU-152 has always been that it's really good against both infantry AND tanks at a superb range. This has always made it very problematic to deal with in a game where both teams have equal footing. Its AI capabilities have been nerfed quite a few times though as of late, so it's not as OP as it once was (Still forces units off the map pretty quickly though). Another problem is that flanking is more or less impossible now-a-days given how many ways there is to punish flanking (Mines, AT-nades, button, mark-target, other support tanks, AT guns, etc) so ultra-long range units like the ISU-152 and Jagdtiger feel a little indestructible to all but eachother.
Because of the nature of the ultra-long range heavies, the ISU-152 can't really be countered easily (or at all, for that matter) by infantry. You''ll need tanks of your own. I've had games, however, against amazingly skilled players where I managed to have a Jagdtiger solo 3 ISU-152s at once, as well as IS2s. I guess this is to say, the only reliable way to counter the ISU-152 is with either the Elefant or the Jagdtiger. |
Thread: luchs5 Aug 2014, 15:32 PM
More like the opposite, early game when maxim wall is still thin Soviet have to be conservative with their maxim or it will be wiped by Sturmpio from behind, against US they also have no counter to Kubel if their forces spread out. OKW unit works best when u send your first sturmpio and Kubel/Volks straight to the cut off point than cap backwards.
This isn't my experience of things.
Both the Soviets and the Americans have a distinct infantry advantage over the OKW due to their main-line infantry being flatout better. Well microed conscripts generally trump well microed volksgrens pretty hard; you'll need a map advantage for any other result. I'm not even going to go into the power of Maxims and Scout Cars (Both the soviet tiers being extremely useful against early-game OKW infantry).
Rifles are pretty good aswell and a Kubel - while being a pain - isn't generally really significant in the grand scheme of the early game infantry war for two reasons: It's extremely easy to destroy (Especially with flanking; takes a lot of micro and attentiveness to be able to prevent a Kubel from dying in this way) and becomes redundant after any form of AT heavier than the Rifle's standard issue Garands comes out. Let's not even go into how useless the Kubel is against Sovs.
Sturmpios are good, there's no denying that, but they're expensive to reinforce and getting a new one really puts a dent in your manpower. Although, when used properly, the Sturmpio is an amazing unit, having engagements where you don't use your sturmpios cost-effectively can be extremely detrimental for your MP drain. I've had early sturmpio wipes against some of the best OKW players in the game (Simply because of the sheer vulnerability of the unit). |
Thread: luchs5 Aug 2014, 06:43 AM
This is slightly pedantic but the 66% fuel income is slightly inaccurate for OKW.
All income from points is decreased by 66%. However all sides get a permanent +4 fuel at the start of the game which is not lowered for OKW.
Let's assume 1 fuel point, 5 strategic points.
For normal player: 4 base + 15 strategic + 7 fuel = 26.
For OKW player: 4 base + 10 strategic + 4.6 fuel = 18.6
18.6/26 = 71.7% fuel income of other sides with even map control.
It's only a raw 5% difference but that is like... 16% more fuel income that 66% mathematically I think?
Sound logic. I didn't consider the +4 at the start. However, you have to consider that the percentage fuel the OKW get compared to a "normal" faction varies depending on the map control and fuel income of both factions. As the OKW control more territory, the +4 becomes increasingly insignificant and as they control less territory, it becomes increasingly significant, and thus percentages will change. For calculations, it's easier to assume that the +4 is irrelevant and the OKW get a fixed 66% of a normal player's resources, as the percentage - if you consider the +4 - is dependent on map control, which you can't predict or know in these sort of discussions.
The OKW also tend to hold (significantly) less ground in the early game in an equal skill matchup. |
Thread: luchs4 Aug 2014, 07:32 AM
2. The fuel cost overall to field a luchs is less and i know okw get less fuel but you can't use that as excuse because that's the way the faction is meant to be fuel starved,
t70 quickest route fuel 40-120-70=230
luchs quickest route fuel 40-80-50= 170
You get exactly 66% of the fuel you would get with any other faction as the OKW, given the same map control. The "Quickest route to the Luchs" doesn't actually cost 170 fuel, but 170/0.66 fuel, which equals 257.575757576 according to google calculator. This is slightly more than the 230 fuel you have to pay with the Soviets.
True, you can convert munitions into fuel, but keep in mind that although you may have extra fuel, you have less munitions, meaning you have less flexibility in what you can do with grenades/upgrades etc (Something which can be exploited by your enemy). Your econonmy, given the unit value of fuel and munitions, is still the same.
Also, rushing for a Luchs is generally extremely risky given that the OKW lack a "Real" AT-gun (The raketen without vet is kinda bad). Volks with schreks are pretty good but they're not really effective in killing Tanks by themselves; whereas they can repel tanks, they're only Infantry and aren't fast enough to cover the entire map against a tank. Plus, they can't really kill tanks by themselves, as a competant player will simply pull his tank back when its at low health: Volks don't have the speed to chase. All this is to say, the Luchs isn't a super-early unit unless you get screwed in the early game and give the opponent no reason to have to get Pumas/FlaK-HTs (In which case, it's probably a PEBKAC problem, or RNG), so you should have stuff to deal with it by the time it comes out. |
The Puma isn´t op !! But he is already at min 6:30 on the battlefield. What is this ?? wy so early?
At this time the Ami is able to organise some Bazookas but if you do this your inf. isnt able to counter Okws inf, because without an B A R you have no chance to do that. And the Puma will rape your abulance car or M5 flack truck in 10 sec.
I have 3 shooter squads and there is one Kübelwagen and in 6 sec. the shooters are pinned. WTF ???
PEBKAC: Problem exists between keyboard and chair. |
And a single panther can kite an IS-2 from here to Verdun. Panther is faster and our ranges the IS-2. Troll it all day erry day.
You're really really not playing both units to their strengths in that example. Panthers excel by making use of their long range and superior mobility to stay at ranges where other tanks cannot reliably penetrate- or even fire back at all.
IS-2's excel by keeping other tanks close where it's not going to miss and can make use of a large HP pool and even thicker frontal armour to out-slug more mobile tanks that could otherwise simply rotate out for repairs and tie it up forever.
The Panther is actually a surprisingly terrible kiting unit against other heavy tanks. Far accuracy is pretty bad from maximum range. From my experience, the IS2 will more or less match the Panther's max range. From the front, kiting an IS2 is more or less useless.
The frontal Armour of the IS2 is almost twice the pen value of the Panther's main gun. From the front, you'll penetrate roughly once in every two shots. What that means is, you'll statistically be able to pen from the front every 18 seconds (Assuming the round actually hits). Whereas you need something like 6 shots from a Panther to kill an IS2(18 * 6 = 108 or just under 2 minutes, completely ignoring the (actually quite large) chance of a miss), the IS2 only needs 3 shots on the Panther from the front, whereas it has a 75%-ish chance of penetrating.
All in all, Panthers are terrible against IS2s. Hell, King-Tigers are actually fairly bad vs IS2s, let alone Panthers. And yeah, they're massively overpriced for what they do. Essentially just a glorified T34/85 without any of the AI-capabilities. |
Holy shit. That chat log though. |
Pretty nice play. I'm not an American expert(Only a handfull of games with them in 1v1s, although I've played against them to kingdom come and back, and I play with them fairly often in 2v2s), although here's a few things I noticed:
You should have been more picky with your engagements. You were lettings Rifles slug it out against Grens at ultra-long range for no gain what so ever(There were no units coming to back up your Riflemen so the engagements were a pointless drain of manpower for you; Grens fight far more cost effectively than rifles at long range, so pick your engagements accordingly).
Losing your first lieutenant near the beginning of the game was a huge loss. Although mistakes do happen, as a general rule of thumb you should never have damaged infantry near the front lines if you don't need them there. Don't get me wrong, it's not always a good idea to retreat, but you should have pulled that Lieutenant back for healing.
Your vehicle play in general was excellent. Although you took some gambles when pushing into mid/his blob, they really paid off and you were able to seriously hurt him very early on. You picked your armour engagements pretty well (Although this was also partly Stevebud's fault for setting up in mid on Kholedny Ferma; it's like, the worst possible place to setup a forward HQ on any map. So many ways to flank, really open with a lot of red cover, etc).
Infantry was a bad doc for that map. You weren't really able to use it at all. The LMGs came in handy occasionally but to be honest, BARs would have been just as good (if not better) on that map, given how claustrophobic the hedges/building placement can get. I would have gone for Armoured personally. Even a single Howitzer 105mm Sherman would have given you a great edge vs his Infantry.
The Priest was a great decision but it wasn't used very well. You should have used it exclusively to pummel his base and retreating units as opposed to trying to hit mobile targets/blobs. Although it did SOME damage, it could have been waaaaaay more effective if you had used it to target his PaKs or his base.
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lol. Evalance got screeeweeedddd. Props to the SOE clan for showing this assinine what for. |
Interesting game with lots of to and fro action going on.
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