Hard counters are not by default completely immune and untouchable by the thing they counter.
You have 240mp, possible 480, in an MG and a gren squad. 1400MP arrives in 5 rifle squads with 600 Muni of BAR rifles.
No, you do not get to 'expect to win' that.
You just don't.
I can kill a Jagdtiger with 1000 fuel's worth of T-70's, too. Just because you hard counter does not mean you cannot be overwhelmed.
If your force is vastly, vastly smaller and flanking would take time or effort, simply blowing your face off is a perfectly viable tactic. The fact that blobbers do it inadvertently is a small footnote.
MG's are magical 'all infantry please go away' buttons.
Throwing 1000MP worth of infantry at a KV8 will also mean a dead KV8 so long as that infantry has any AT capable weaponry, yes. Say, three shrecked Pgren squads. Tasty dead KV8 lunch.
3 squads of suppressed Riflemen shouldn't be able to win against supported MG42 attacking up front and being blobed in the middle of its firing arc. Period.
If he would sent one squad on the left edge of the arc and another one on the right and one of them went through I would be all right with it but he got his 3 squads bunched up right in the centre, suppressed and still managed to win this engagement. No suppressed unit should be able to take out a heavy machine gun shooting at it. Not to forget that my MG was in yellow cover, had a Grenadiers squad spotting for it and US blob was in negative cover as they were walking on the road.
On the side note why don't you try to throw a 1000mp worth of infantry against KV-8 when your opponent is decent and knows what he is doing and come back and share your experience. |
no you can't balance the game like this because hmg cost ONLY 240
all i see is a german player, who just want to lock an army with only 240 req. Your 240req hmg is just overwhelmed by a bigger force, thats all, hmg can already counter 2x their price, and i'm ok with it, but don't expect to lock all the map with 240req unit wich require no skill to be used
your hmg is overwhelmed? fall back and bring your force, HMG already slow your enemy advance, and its the goal.
Like it or not, no matter how little skill is put into it your opponent is throwing 1000+ manpower and untold munitions at a fight. I don't give a toss how amazingly you micro your one gren squad and your HMG, that is a massive force that needs to be engaged with similar numbers.
Would you feel better if they all came in groups of two five feet apart? Because no amount of micro is going to be worth investing if all you want to do is punch through a relatively weak defense.
You can yell 'omg blob' all you want. You were heavily outnumbered, you lost for that reason alone.
Next time, use your clearly superior micro to hit the blob from two sides, or lure them into MG's in green cover (MG's being plural, not one. Two MG42 in green will blob control any size of blob)
Believe it or not, overwhelming an MG is not actually a 'mistake' that needs punished. It's just a fight. A very simple one called 'I shoot more bullets from all these guys than your MG42 can'
So what if he's throwing 1000 manpower? If he's willing to throw 1000 mp away by just marching into supported MG up front then be my guest. I'll take it. CoH2 is all about counters and HMG should be a hard counter to a blob. US MG does that, Maxim does that as well (it requires some micro however but I'm fine with that) but German MGs don't and I don't think that's fair.
If he flanks me with that army. Yes of course I should loose but if he just walks into MG emplacement hes army should be thorn into pieces. If that's not the case then it will only encourage more blobing because why flank if I can just walk into it and win every time.
As an example you wouldn't throw 1000mp worth of infantry against KV8 would you? |
So you want 240 req counter 1000+ req + 100+ ammo right?
be serious 1 second please, even if the hmg is the hardcounter, you can't exepect this
in this situation hmg are just here to slow down the blob while your army is back, not a terminator pewpewsquad of death
No, I want bad play to be punished. Blobing shouldn't be rewarding in any way. I don't mind 2 sqads taking out HMG due to successful flank but I want a blob going straight on on MG42 position to be punished. No matter how big the blob is. |
The only real issue MG42s have against US is that the smokenades are just way too spammable. You don't need to aim them particularly well because they block MG42s from firing in a huge radius around the effect. Suppression rate, pin rate and damage are all good already, its only against sprinting units (hi conscripts) that mg42s have some issues due to gun traverse speed and weird targeting behavior around the edges of the firing cone. USF doesn't have sprinters.
You can't hold off an infantry blob with just an MG42, you need a forward spotter so it starts firing before the riflemen fire back at it (and likely instakill the gunner). But I don't think this is a requirement that needs to go away.
If you read carefuly what I've wrote you will notice that I am talking about MG42 in yellow cover supported by a Gren squad providing line of sight and blob of US Army approaching on the road and taking MG42 and Grens out despite being suppressed. If that's how HMGs should work for you than ok but form is that's not being effective. |
Both MGs are lacking if you compare them to their counterparts. They should be able to suppress much faster. Not pinning, just suppressing. Tweaking the multipliers could be a good idea. More units in the arc? More suppression and dmg output. I can deal with Maxim spams with both OH and OKW. US hmg comes later in the game and there are plenty counters for it. Half truck is a different matter for both new factions.
Juts make MG42 and a true crowd control weapons how they should be. |
I don't like that blitzkrieg is back in its old state. |
Suppression does do sheep to US blob. |
If you can't counter a blob when you have crowd control, you're doing it wrong.
Honestly unless you were just letting your guys stand there and shoot whatever the fuck they wanted while you let your HMG take the hits, you should win 9/10 times in any blob situation.
And don't ever expect to win when you're massively outgunned, even if you have suppression, there is such a thing as saturating the target zone. Units can still shoot while suppressed, throw enough of them in there and they will still do a lot of damage. This isn't a phenomenon unique to American troops.
So if you're seeing a huge blob and you don't have to firepower to handle it, be smart and simply retreat, or sacrifice the unit if it's in your interests to do so.
But honestly in a situation where he's been forced to blob, you should be around doing other stuff. A fist can only smash one object at a time.
What I'm surprised nobody's complaining about is Riflemen getting smoke. It's the best set-up team counter in the game(When they're outside of buildings - Then it's just a delaying tactic). Smoke 'em, run up, nade 'em and they'll either retreat or when the smoke falls off you just kill them.
Yeah theory is nice and all that but it doesn't matter against USA because they can be all suppressed and they will be able to destroy MG42 firing from the edge of the MG's range. Happens way too often if not all the time. Recent game I had a huge blob of US infantry coming at my MG42 supported with Grenadiers squad. I knew what will going to happened so I hit retreat as soon as I suppress this. MG42 didn't managed to pack itself before it got killed (!) Moscow outskirts next to the left hand side fuel point. MG42 was set up in the yellow cover next to a fence and US blob was marching on the road which means they were in negative cover (!) being suppressed. That's how far the theory goes.
So I think screw this next game I know MGs are useful only at the begining before US hits critical mass so I go Ostwind supported with PaKs. Ostwind is a dedicated AI vehicle so I thought it will help me to control and punish this blob but no because suddenly they got Bazookas.
Also having access to artillery piece that's that powerful early in the game is not good neither. Also mobile reinforcement and medic station in one that can be set up at the front line. OKW is guilty of it as well. And obviously there is the Flak Truck of death. GG.
I can't believe this game was in alpha and beta and tested for so long and no one have noticed this. |
Blobs should be easily counter able with smart play unfortunately blobing with USA is a bit too rewarding right now and not punished hard enough. Especially when you play as Wermaht (OH).
I'd start from giving some love to MG42. |
They got racket thing. I'd say it's better than PaK. |