Thanks Eupolemos: Editing post to make it less convoluted with errors
I like the change for all of the things extra manpower opens up in the early game. I like being able to build a penal squad early without ceding all map control.
The problem though,seems to be that while it opens up other options, the mp boost supports faster, more agressive infantry spam even more than it supports the alternatives. Maybe conscripts and grens should be 250 manpower. They could also raise the manpower on the molotov upgrade by 50 or 100(if this balance change actually favors russia too much, though snf streams are suggesting that isn't too much of a problem.)
Otherwise revert the change i guess, and go for the faster tier buildings of t1 and t2 and maybe a cheaper penal squad at 300 to 320 manpower. |
Soviet industry change sounds good. I don't know if its enough. We'll have to see.
Regarding t70's killing power on the move: outside of the Soviet Industry Doctrine the fastest you can get a t70 is like 7:30 to 8 minutes. If I'm doing a rush stall to get that t70, I've probably started losing enough map control that I can expect a p4 at about the 10 minute mark. I have already pushed back my first t34 by at least a few minutes.
If I can't make very good use of this short window, the risks of building a fast t70 become just way too high for the payoff. As it is, unless I have a commanding lead I can expect the p4 to be on the field hunting the t70 a couple minutes before the t34 comes to back me up.
I have seen replays where aggressive play seems to lock ostheer into t2, where the first t70 comes out at the 10 minute mark and is followed by a second one, and together they clean up. I've also seen replays where that didn't pay off at all, because the ostheer player still got an oswind or a p4 out, leaving the soviets with almost nothing to counter it.
For that reason I'm hesitant. As much as I hate getting mowed down by scout cars, I don't know that its the end of the world, and chasing vehicles are taking a risk that they won't get fausted or grenaded, or intercepted. I think it just depends on how drastic the change is. I wouldn't want something like this to neuter the later t70 just because it can fly out the gate so early now.
Tiger ace change is probably important but doesn't fix the things I'm hesitant about concerning the call-in. The tank is almost always destined to just make a v-line for the opponent's base. It pretty much has to if the game is even. Otherwise your opponent will reinforce, repair and add to his force while you hang out on the map. In that way, the tank is almost entirely on rails. If it does get into your base, unless you can disable it, it is going to be game over really fast. I propose a fast VP tick-down against the ostheer that also kicks in as soon as he calls in the tank so that soviet players that were on their way to a vp victory might actually get there if the ostheer doesn't first push off the opponent and hold vps.
Alternately, I propose that the Tiger Ace should be nerfed by maybe a third, and Ostheer income should only be choked down to something like 10 or 20 percent, allowing for the re-enforcement of still living squads, and the very occasional purchase of a new unit.
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I like the idea |
I see nothing wrong with the commanders conceptually. Yes, they are drastic in a way that literally changes the way the faction is played if you choose a specific doctrine.
GOOD. If its balanced what the hell is the problem? It makes potential gameplay more dynamic. I haven't used the new commanders, but I played against the two paid german ones last night, and both games were pretty awesome. The doctrines all have their weaknesses, and if those aren't exploitable enough at the moment, then a balance change will be in order.
I don't understand the ranting about the concepts. The vetting plays out really interesting. You end up fighting a much smaller force of elite troops, if your opponent is spamming the ability, and then maybe one vet 2 p4. Given other vetting changes, your pumped-up squads will actually help to vet your opponent when they die.
The quick vehicle ability that russia gets entirely retools their army. You don't get shocks or guards, and you have a restricted manpower income. So you get a 5 minute t70. counters already exist at that point in the game, and you are going to be sorely lacking in infantry support as the russian commander,for the whole game.
For a while I was concerned about there being less standard teching options, but I don't think the doctrinal system being the place where you are given flexibility is a bad system. In vcoh you had more unit options that you could combine with 3 different doctrines to different effect. In coh2, russia has more units than america did, though less teching options, and you can combine those 14 units in different ways with many more than 3 doctrines, to greatly expand the way a faction can be played.
So what is the reasoning for disallowing them from Sunday Night Fights? That they haven't been properly balanced at this time, or that you have made a decision about what the "legitimate" gameplay parameters are?
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what's the big deal already( unless the issue is what you got with your collectors edition, which does seem disappointing to me).
As to DLC commanders, from my perspective, whether I get a new commander or I end up playing against one, every time relic adds them, they add content to the game for me to enjoy, even if its simply in the new challenges I have to run up against.
There is almost certainly going to be price reductions for these older commanders down the line, when there are new shinier options for the people who are most eager for new material to purchase. I'm sure relic/sega will want to maximize their returns on these, so that once the first round of buyers have had these for 6 months or so at a premium, others will be given access at a more modest price.
It could be a year before I even really start using the new commanders at the rate I"m going, but I did just buy 20 dollars worth, mostly to support the company in the mean-time. Hell, if this is the only model that gets companies to invest in the future of RTS games these days, then I'm willing to put some money towards generating confidence in the product.
And Pay-to-play arguments are balance arguments only....nobody can ever bring more than 3 commanders into any match. If things are balanced properly, whatever commanders you pick, you are restricted from using any others, so nobody in the context of a single game, will have more actual options than anybody else. You will have different access,not better access, unless something is broken, and if that is the case, it won't stay that way forever.
Regarding skins, I couldn't really care less. Because I couldn't care less, the price could be cheaper, but then I still couldn't care less. The price is set for people who want the skins enough to pay for them. Coh1 didn't have alternative skins and there wasn't a whole lot of bitching about that fact.
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I have definitely seen in some previous discussion that the sniper hit percentage was 40, but that may have changed?
Well I figured that the russian sniper already gets cried about for being an effective unit against the small ostheer squads, especially when you get 2 of them. I also figured that i've seen a few threads now that suggest that russia has less problems clearing buildings due to the molotovs.
I didn't mean for the ostheer sniper to be a hard counter to building garrisoning either. At 60 or 70 percent, it is merely better at attrition of the bigger russian squads. It should make hanging out in a building more painful for russia, but not less viable, while possibly making the sniper a more common build.
Riflenades did just get an indirect nerf due to the removal of building collapses, and as somebody who is playing much more russian in general...anything that gets an ostheer player to prefer a sniper over 4 grens is a winner to me.
I do agree that the ostheer sniper is pretty decent as it is right now. I don't think its particularly fragile either, save the random mortar kill, so I'm not actually sure that any kind of hp buff is in order. My idea was more of a way to encourage the unit's use.
I'm not good enough to know if ostheer needs this though. They have the riflenades, they have flamer pios, and now the better mortars, and in the relatively early game, should they want, they can get the cheaper and more zippy scout car with the cannon upgrade, which also does a number on garrisoned units, or just get the more expensive fht of course. |
A small at upgrade might not hurt, but it could be pretty minor and do the job you want it to. Even an upgrade to the mg fire-rate would do it.
An m3 will beat a flame halftrack as it is now 1 on 1(although it takes a while), so it is an effective deterrent already if the fht is aggressive and unsupported, especially if you get an at-nade on it.
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why not just make ostheer sniper also better at emptying buildings, 60 to 75 percent effective versus 40 percent. That would probably make them a more appealing build in the early game.
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Disclaimer: some of this is old news to people, and has been talked about in other threads. Hopefully not all of it though.
I’ll preface this post by saying that I’m still loving COH2, and that I’m not yet of the opinion that the game lacks depth in comparison to its predecessor, but then I’m not playing in the top 200.
And even with that said, there are some things I miss that did add depth to the original game that have had to have been made up elsewhere in coh2(if at all). I also see people chime in on various threads about how coh2 is lacking in strategy compared to coh1, and I wonder what in more specific terms, people find is absent, and what simple solutions(entire overhaul isn’t a very valuable suggestion) you might offer towards remedying that.
Things I Miss:
American building flexibility versus Russian fixed 2-building rigidity. A thread was made on this topic with suggested changes to Russian costs that I think was worth looking at.
The Base-rush! Does this ever happen? Neither faction gets a garrisonable hq in their territory, so I appreciate why mg nests are everywhere and why pushing that far in with vehicles is a deadly game given engine crits, but is there a way to bring this back into the game without breaking it? I never see infantry pushes on bases, and it takes a whole element out of the game that was intense and often all-in by the aggressor. In coh2 I have been base rushed all of one time in all of my auto-matches, and it didn’t go well for my opponent.
The Forced Commander Choice: I lament that forcing a doctrine choice with a base rush or a fast vehicle may be dead, given the vast number of commanders, and the fact that other than say, vehicle smoke(which is entirely at the discretion of the user) there aren’t any “oh shit” choices for ostheer, while for Russia, the choice mostly comes down to one of many options that contain either Guards or Shocks, telling the opponent very little. I am starting to get more familiar with the commanders and what to expect once somebody has committed to a doctrine(when it is obvious anyway) and I do appreciate that some doctrine choices of your opponent are distinctive enough that they will determine how you will play against them, but I don’t know that there is that element of picking doctrine B to counter doctrine A that VCOH had, which made picking a late doctrine its own reward, even if you didn’t get the earlier benefits.
Tech options: There are no vet upgrades(this is a good thing), no bar upgrades, 76 mm upgrades, etc. Russia has all of 2 fuel upgrades and Ostheer has 0. I was still hoping for some global fuel upgrades to expand the overall strategic options that each faction has. I’ve heard some cool suggestions, including those for blizzard protection, faster vetting after upgrade, a CP acceleration upgrade for ostheer(that one sounded really cool)…etc.
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Oh Right definitely! mines aren't so prevalent that I shouldn't pay for hitting a mine. I was actually suggesting that I don't mind fausts and at grenades having a chance to do heavy engine damage if the tank has taken a certain amount of abuse previously. This at least would be a condition that a player could weigh the risks of to some extent. |