I thought I should check the data before I posted and it turns out RE DPS is comparable to CE, getting better at close range. Main difference is that they don't have a flamethrower of course and the moving accuracy is 0.25 vs 0.5 for CE. RE are clearly not meant to be firing on the move in any situation. They're both terrible against mainlines and bad vs pioneers (say your prayers against SP) but idk what to suggest. Maybe your suggested change would help, but needs to be carefully scaled. Volley fire doesn't really do much even in the best situation (even volks will eventually get up and shoot you in the face) and the suppressed squad has 50% RA vs most small arms(?) so it can work against you.
But I think this whole business is part of a wider issue of USF needing a rework I think. I'll admit their early game is pretty unpleasant to play and mortar is a must get vs OST or just get memed by 2 x MG42 openers.
In this case the DPS is a wrong stat. Carbines fire much faster. Just check the damage and accuracy near/mid/far of RE carbine and CE mosin. Mosin deals 12 dmg and it's accuracy is:
near 0.76
mid 0.66
far 0.56
RE carbine is 8dmg with:
0.51
0.35
0.27
CEs will always kill at least one model of most approaching infantry and just duke it out from there. CEs keep firing and firing and they end up with 0 dmg on approach and instead pray that 0.51 close range is RNG favoured.
Hence why the DPS is not a good metric in this case. Carbines just fire faster, but with the low damage and sh*t accuracy, the RoF does not help in any way except mathematically on a graph. Also, I think that DPS graph is wrong. An analogy would be: It's better to focus one squad at a time than just A-move. Spreading out damage on other models/infantry means that they stay alive longer, and damage you back more.
Tested it. CEs in green cover easily win against approaching grens, pios and volks. Lose to approaching Spios. Of course, nobody in their right mind would rush with grens or volks, but it's there to prove a point.
REs behind same green cover lose terribly to all.
Meanwhile Sturmpioneer in the corner reading this thread: *sweats*
RE is indeed trash, but that's because ppl abused it to hell & back. And thus here we are, with USF early game balance.
Yeah. Still, leaving them in tatters was not the best of moves. Spios are fine. 300 MP, 4 man engineer squad that melts. Expensive and dangerous. Nothing wrong with that. Fact is that pios are not really the strong ones, but REs are useless. Literally like having no squad at all. Well, they can capture territory, so there's that. And the tank traps, if well placed can actually be better than the sandbags due to their survivability. But still, no proper mines, extremely weak early game, veterancy that can only really be acquired with zooks, or in 1v1 with LMGs. If a miracle happens and COH3 is a success and Relic decides to give a gift of a balance patch to the COH2 community (hardly that the COH2 community will die with COH3 release), I would like to see a removal of volley fire in a muni starved faction, more XP for vet1 and a buff to close-mid range performance
They do suck ass at combat except when ambushing at point blank range. Royal engineers are only 10mp more but come with more dps and better vet, more survivability with 5 man, etc. Nobody is complaining that royal engineers do too much damage though, only pios because they compare them to the literal worst squad in the game. All the engineers are fine and are pretty balanced within their factions. Looking at a 1:1 comparison in combat stats between these utility squads is a bit silly.
Well. To be frank. Royal engineers have the snare, and in one tech line, they are designed around the offensive play (anvil). So, they are more of an assault squad than a true engineer. But the whole brit faction is funny as hell so...
They are decent at the beginning, but fall flat on their face quickly. Spamming them is not viable, nor is even building a second one in the early game unless you're trying some odd double MG/double pio stall for PGrens.
In a normal build, you'll pay for it once LVs arrive until the mid game where you can finally use the increased repairs for your medium tank.
This overall sounds like a fair trade off to me, let them have their chance to shine.
I tested it out. It's basically that echelon are so criminally bad at combat, that you can basically ignore them as their DPS is laughable. Even at 10 range, Pios have 55% more DPS than echelon. Tested out Rifles + Combat engineers (soviet). Pios get wrecked. Tested out rifles + vehicle crew... pios lose hard. Basically, RE is completely useless in combat until you invest 100 munitions into them, at which point they can be used as a vehicle deterrent. Or you could use the volley fire and delay the weapon upgrades a bit. And I wouldn't call them useless later on. Not only can they repair tanks quite fast, they do get the flamers and they can plant mines. Double Pio with MG42s can easily stand up to anything in 3v3s. Mostly due to map designs. Tightrope even showed the power of double pio into PGrens power.
So all in all. The fight should say "Rifles" vs double Pios. Rifles + Rear Echelon = Rifles -> Rear Echelon = 0 iff Rifles =/= 0
it is the RE squad that really sucks in combat. RE mp cost does not compare well to most other squads in terms of combat power (like the major....). So if you take two units and one of the is a RE, that team will lose the 2v2.
It is the mate.
Always :-)
Most likely the biggest issue. Like aerafield said. REs have peashooters. Basically the weakest combat unit in the game until they upgrade to double zooks, at which point they have some use. I'd remove the volley fire and increase XP needed for vet1, to buff early game firepower. I mean, if USF already is a muni sink, with AT guns, weapon racks, etc. It's a shame that you need to waste muni at minute 1 just to be able to beat anything. Multiplied in 3v3s where the maps don't really have leeway in terms of "spreading out"
Usf isn't great non doctrinally as well imo, falling far behind both Soviet and Wehr. Okw edges out Brits who I would put dead last.
Okw not getting smoke or indirect for at least 3-4 minutes is a bit tough. Even more now so since it takes longer (slightly) to get a battlegroup up and leigs now arrive off map instead of from the structure. Firestorm was patched in because okw was critically lacking in urban environments, and it's still fundamentally the same as it ever was (without firestorm).
I don't do ettelbruck as usf either, admittedly.
I would be lying if I said that I disagreed, and yes, Firesturm did get the needed love it deserved, no doubt. Having said that, I can see how OKW can struggle on certain parts of the map. Namely ettelbruck on bottom side where buildings can lock you out if the soviet (brit less so) rushes the starting unit into it, followed by the machinegun. Still, my hatred towards the USF mortar means that I beg the Gods that Soviet builds a mortar to deny the MG42 on that map. I ban ettelbruck and unban Rhzev until I remember why I hate Rhzev (unbalanced spawns, snow FPS late game tank, strange shotblocking)... rinse and repeat.
Still, most scenarios, OKW is fine in the starting minutes. Brits I hate from the bottom of my soul. Soviets, unlike the real-life counterparts, are lovable and great to have as an ally. OST is just as complete as old school CS 1.6
People underestimate pios because combat engineers and rear echelons suck ass without upgrades/vet. Those at least stay relevant late game where pio's combat utility falls off.
They're all fine.
Well, pios won't carry zooks, but you won't use echelons as frontlines in anything above 1v1. Pios, unlike echelons of all engineers, can actually plant useful mines. I wouldn't neglect it as late game potential.
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