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I'll just say that multiple rear echelon starts are better than people seem to be giving it credit for.
Also, all of these ideas have to keep upgunned RE performance in mind too. Make the REs too cheap or cost too little to reinforce, and they become hyper efficient weapon carriers. |
Since they're based off of Brandenburgers (which made extensive use of captured weaponry), why not allow them to upgrade to captured weaponry like a 1x DP-28 or 2x PPsH? I also echo the self-healing medpacks idea.
A fun idea, but that doesn't do anything to give them a role or reason to be built (though I guess being cool is a pretty big reason...). Also, I said it in a previous post, but they already get first aid kits on vet 1 just like nearly every other ostheer unit. |
4 Kars vs 4 Stgs are pretty much the same DPS wise at long range, Stgs being a touch weaker, but at those ranges DPS is so low they are plinking at targets anyway. Hence PzGrens and Grens (w/o upgrade) are about equal at long range, but PzGrens are uneconomical for the purpose.
Stgs OTOH have increasing DPS as range drops hence they are much better answer vs. threats like PPsh Cons, Shocks etc.
Commandoes Stens are IIRC totally OP at close range, MP 40s are not. They are meh at best, and solid vs. engineer units. IF you can get close. Not so much a problem with 200 MP units, more of a problem with 340 MP units.
At that point why even compare unupgraded grens. If the argument is that the squad would be preferable to a vanilla gren squad, then I think the point is lost already. 1x stg and 3x kars would make the unit awkward to use. You either sit at max range (stgs have half the dps of kars at max range, though they very quickly catch up to kars), at which point lmg grens or even vanilla grens would be better. Or you walk up to a unit and lose because you're stuck with 3x kars. Essentially they don't have the DPS to win long range or short range fights.
So I'm assuming you didn't test the mp40s. Can't exactly blame anyone since absolutely no information was even really given regarding the mp40s, but after the most recent round of buffs, they have a higher dps than stens, and they were already roughly equivalent to shocks ppshs, so yeah. Any argument that directly or indirectly uses the idea that their mp40s suck in comparison to other smgs (except thompsons) should probably be rethought. |
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Decided to just make a general post that contains my responses to points people have raised (and because I don't quite know how to multiquote).
Pgrens actually don't have smoke grenades. That change was tested on one of the balance previews but didn't make it through to live.
Honestly, 1x stg and 3x kars would lead to a pretty weak unit; offensively weaker than vanilla grens probably. That's just not an option considering how much more they cost. Beyond that, "flavor" infantry (the kind that you only toss one of into your build) doesn't really work too well with a generalist profile unless they're really strong generalists - like falls. Even then, falls only work because they're so strong that they essentially function as OKW's mid game long range infantry.
On a lot of Vipper's points, the answer is essentially #scope. That word isn't really tossed around in our discussions, obviously, but the restriction is still essentially there. We're allowed to touch 2 commanders from each faction and basically nothing else. Obviously Relic has made exceptions to that rule (mobi def, brit snares), but those things aren't really open discussions and stuff we can negotiate on, it's more that Relic decides when to put those changes on the board.
Storms already have first aid kits at vet 1.
For all the people remarking on 4 man close range squads not working, I point to commandos. Commandos were previously 4 men, and given that storms have MUCH better vet than commandos, vet 3 storms essentially catch up to current vet 3 commandos in durability.
4x AT rifles would probably function similarly. I guess it would be extremely reliable light AT as opposed to schrecks which can miss, but I think it would be a nerf to the squad in both AI and AT (depending on numbers of course). Personally, I dont think storms should have even had the panzerschreck upgrade to begin with, but thats besides the point.
Edit (I usually edit without saying anything unless my post has already been seen): the doctrine we're reworking doesnt have an officer callin (unless I missed something).
Second edit: aaaaaand i'm wrong about their not being an officer |
Changing them to MP 40s was a terrible idea. Instead of overlapping with PzGrens, they now overlap with/basically the same as Assault Grenadiers and to a lesser extent, Pios. And they used to be just terribly expensive, slightly buffed Grenadiers with ambush camouflage built in.
I like the idea that they are added to an underused doctrine, thing is I would like to use them more often, but they are so few doctrines as it is.
Clearly the unit needs to be more unique for that price. They are very expensive for what they do - basically Grenas with slightly lower RA with an +50% price tag.
Going with the results of the poll, lets keep their Kar 98s, but only 3 of them and the 4th guy gets a Stg44. This would give them a character (they are basically politcally correct W-SS infantry which was known to have received earlier/more Stgs) in their intended assault role, it would make sense for infiltration (since Bundled Grenades are both nerfed and on cooldown when spawned). A single Stg would buff them in close range but otherwise would not be very OP or having the DPS potential of Pzgrens.
Keep the Stg upgrade, but since it adds only 3 Stgs, reduce the Muni cost to a more affordable and sensible 75.
The wire cutter ability also makes sense and would fit into the unit's character well.
This would give you a versatile semi elite unit suitable for infiltration, with a medicum of close combat, with a nice historical touch.
But then they still vastly underperform stock, and become more expensive pgrens. In fact, they would probably be worse than grens since you're mixing a mid range stg with long range rifles. Anyway, my understanding of the changes was that we were attempting to:
1. Make them not useless without an upgrade
2. Reduce overlap with other units (grenadiers and panzergrenadiers)
I don't think your proposal helps with either of these and I don't think it even really changes them. Wirecutters would be cool, but also nearly useless; likely more useless than ostheer first aid kits.
Finally, people keep saying the current iteration of storms overlaps with assault grenadiers, but I fail to understand how that's the case. They don't slot into builds the same way, and you're likely to use them entirely differently. Assault grenadiers are used either as a complete substitute for grenadiers to skip tech or as a one-off in the early game. You build them in the first minute or not at all. Storms are called in when your build and core infantry base is already established. This means that assault grenadiers have to frontline since theyll probably be accounting for a large part of your core fighting force, while storms don't have to shoehorned into situations since you already have grens to do the work. Beyond that, assault grenadiers aren't the ambushers that storms are - live or preview. |
Stormtroopers are in a pretty odd position because no matter what weapons profile you give them, they'll always overlap with other units in OH's quite versatile unit roster. Give them Obersoldaten rifles and they'll just be like grenadiers, give them StG44s and they'll just be like Panzergrens, give them MP40s and they'll just be like Assgrens/arty officer, etc.
Therefore it might be worth exploring to give them unique utility rather than combat roles and put much more emphasis on their current role as infiltration troops that can cause havoc behind enemy lines.
Just thinking aloud here but they could have abilities like disabling strategic points, fast decap rate, laying booby traps, steal resources, demolitions/explosives to attack forward retreat points, lay light vehicle mines to delay enemy armor, salvage wrecks/team weapons, advanced sight range when in cover/camoed, etc.
They could have something like a 2 STG44 / 2 G43 and 2 Kar98 weapons profile for decent self-defence but they wouldn't be very adequate in combat. Their strength would lie in causing confusion and disarray. IMO this would make them very unique and probably really fun to use.
I actually pitched something very similar to that (extreme utility/harrassment/infiltration capabilities with little combat power). The conclusion was that people wouldn't be open to that kind of change given storms' previous identity. Of course, if that conclusion was incorrect, then I think it's something we're open to exploring; however, I don't think such a direction would be chanced unless it was something a noticeable portion of the community supports. |
Again Stormtroopers seem to have little to do with an infantry doctrine and abilities like "valiant assault" "for the further land" "for mother Russia" seem better suited. These abilities could even cost fuel instead of mu so that the commander is not so much munition depended and the player has the choice to improve the performance of his infantry or build vehicles
Suggestion for Stormtroopers:
The MP40 change seem completely unnecessary since it simply promotes the infiltration cheese wipe outs on retreating unit.
Suggestions:
Cost down to 300-320
Unit spawns with 2 g43+2 K98 and can upgrade with 2 more g43 or 1 Panzerschreck
Bunble grenade replaced with DOT grenade either incendiary or Blendkorper
New abilities (not all of them) for the unit:
Unit has wire cutters (fits thematically)
Unit now has demolition charges similar to paratroopers (increases utility)
Casualty Interrogation (ability removed from Jaeger Light Infantry) (fits thematically)
Shue or Rigel mine (increases utility)
Other changes:
Vehicle Detection replace by an ability similar to "Hammer Tracking" (increases utility)
Medkits vet 1 replaced either by a weaker version of "Tactical Assault"or by passive healing that allow unit to operate behind enemy lines.
Camouflage replaced by "radio silence ability" hiding the unit in the mini map
A big reason why we chose stormtroopers instead of a mapwide aura (aside from how boring/uninteractive such abilities are) is because this also allows us to change storms for other doctrines.
If storms spawn with g43s and can upgrade more, then the elite troops g43 upgrade will do nothing for them. Etherealdragon therefore suggested changing the g43 slot in elite troops for something else, but that's something we're not allowed to do since that doctrine wasn't selected. That basically takes away the possibility of stock upgrades that give them g43s.
Demo charges are probably along the vein of booby traps already, and im honestly inclined to say that booby traps are more useful given the detection range on demos now. I'm not quite sure how well incendiaries would fit thematically, but it doesn't sad bad on principle. Casualty interrogation is something, but as you stated, it overlaps with the g43 upgrade and thats not quite something I see a workaround for.
My honest take on the changes you suggested is that they cause conflict with other abilities without giving storms a reason to be built and a meaningful role. Perhaps if you could expand on what that role is and what kind of use case you'd like to hit with these changes it would help. |
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They can't. |
People seem to be forgeting that these snares are going to be going onto what becomes a 5 man squad, which often carries PIATs. Snares and AT combo on the same durable unit is deadly. Also the notes said nothing about taking away the AT gun accuracy buff vs lights. If that stays WITH snares that's overkill.
I brought up the same concerns. Ultimately though, I felt that there was no reason to not at least test this option. |
Was tying it to the Mills Bomb unlock discussed?
Yup, it was the option I initially supported. Others put forth the argument that there wasn't a need to tie it to a sidegrade, and I'm inclined to agree at this point. |
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