I compared old demo with 1-man snipers feature because both these things allow you to delete enemy squad. Yet in one case it is bad to wipe squad and they did a nerf, but in other case it is good and they removed 2nd man for Soviet Sniper Team. Therefore I complained about consistency in removing/nerfing 1-click wiping tools.
And another thing I'd like to mention -
I saw some Wehrmacht vs Brits games in previous patches where snipers on both sides just sat on hold fire and did almost nothing. This is the price for high risk/high reward - the boring idle metagame.
In Wehrmacht vs Soviets matchup Wehr Sniper starts underpowered compared to Soviet one, but if player manages to babysit him and gain vet so it gets incendiary - you get opposite situation. There was at least interesting dynamic between sniper play - Wehr tries to avoid Soviet and get bits of vet.
Now if both players decide to get a Sniper it is same idle play as in Brits matchup.
I don't think this is a valid comparison at all. The 2 man soviet sniper was insanely durable and even a deep dive into the enemy base with a suicide 222 would pretty much be a coin toss on whether or not you wiped it. And the soviet 2 man squad was the only sniper of the tree that was two men, so I don't agree with that reasoning.
While opinions can be split on the concept of countersniping, I don't find it boring at all that people were sneaking around with hold fire. In fact that shows true skill and patience, because it's an expensive unit to keep idle so therefore people will often use it when they feel safe. and not much would change in this two man dynamic, except the sniper would just be even more cancer to deal with because the most reliable counter no longer existed.
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That's the point of 2-man! You don't need to wipe him if he has high recieving accuracy and two models that cost slightly more than now and take slightly longer time to reinforce. You kill one model. You inflicted relatively same amount of bleed on him, you forced him away. He has his 360 MP sitting on the base for some time.
Isn't this a better solution for both sides?
I understand your arguments, but I think that snipers should maintain the role as high risk / high reward and this might be difficult to maintain with a two man squad as we saw with the old soviet sniper. But if you mean that their health should be identical to the one man, but just split on two then I suppose it wouldn't be too bad.
Yes, if opponent concentrates his investments of 720 MP in one place against one of your 240 MP squads he will force you to retreat immediately, no matter what type of units that would be. It could be 3 Conscripts squad - result would be the same.
The difference is 2 Snipers have much less capping power than 3 Conscripts.
Yes you may do more MP bleed on opponent with 2 Snipers, but in the end you will crumble because at some point of game opponent will accumulate enough infantry to consistently force your snipers to retreat AND will get his LV earlier than you because of superior capping power.
This is not really true. A gren squad in a building can hold off for quite a while against three cons and often soft retreat to safety. No such thing agiainst double snipers - it's retreat immediately or get wiped in the next volley.
Coutersnipe still counters them, it just doesn't wipe them. Which is good for the game.
Mortars have even lower effort to maintain, yet they have more wipe potential and serve as the same anti-cover/garrison/HMG tool too.
Should they make mortar squads 2-men, so mortars could "countersnipe" each other?
Should they bring back old demo, so CEs could "countersnipe" grens and volks? By the way demo "countersnipes" for 90MU and if it wipes squad it is usually only 240-260 MP of casualties unlike if you kill 360 MP sniper with your sniper "for free".
Can I have some consistency?
I accept your countersnipe argument. It's reasonable considering two factions don't have snipers. The mortar is not really comparable though as it will only wipe very depleted squads and in spite of recent buffs still takes a while to flush out.
I really don't understand what the pre-patch demo charge has to do with anything in this debate. and the current demo is visible so it has to be used really cleaverly and situationally to pull out. This seems very much like an apples and oranges comparison. |
I consider introducing aritificial limits on unit count as a bad taste. It is a failure on design side.
There should be natural reasons not to have duplicate unit types and not to have multiple squishy units as a sniper. And in sniper case I think reasons are present in game.
Sniper is a unit that requires a lot of babysitting, screening and support. If player invested 720 MP into sniper units, he should not have enough forces for screening against LV and will generally be overwhelmed by enemy infantry force unless his opponent has failed to adapt and continued building team weapons.
Therefore in my opinion introducing limit on snipers is not needed and it is probably just a L2P issue.
I also think it was a mistake to make Soviet sniper 1 man.
It goes against CoH series cornerstones - unit preservation and veterancy.
They had to go completely opposite and make all snipers 82 hp 2-man squads, increase recieved accuracy and increase reinforcement cost AND TIME.
This way countersniping would be still viable, but recieving side won't instantly lose their MP investment together with accumulated veterancy.
Forcing sniper away with LV and killing 1 model would be a good result too.
I wonder, why we got rid of precision shots, demo charges, restricted mines to 2 model kill max in order to reduce squad wipes, but then did U-turn and decided that wiping through countersniping is ok.
Someone didn't learned CoH1 lesson.
I respectfully disagree with at least some of your points (surprisingly I know  ) .
Yes snipers need babysitting at the time when light vehicles reign supreme, but outside that timeslot they are actually somewhat safe and take a lot of effort, stealth and planning for the opponent to kill. Conversely, going double sniper and a-moving them around in groups does not really take much more effort than moving one sniper but has twice the impact and will force 4-man squads to immediately retreat or be wiped.
I really see no point of making the snipers two man again as that would make them even less vulnerable to one of their best counters, the counter-snipe, and mean that they would be an even more low effort to maintain for most of the match. |
Can I ask for a one Churchill limit?
Nope, you can stay on topic if you please  |
"I hear and obey. Job's done. Zug zug."
Some wisdom from the Panzer of the lake.
Pot calls kettle black. If you constantly say stupid things in order to make fun of things you consider stupid, it doesn't take long enough for others to perceive you in the same way.
Stay on topic before other mods have to step up in this thread again.
Thank you oh wise lake Panzer! |
Don't like that one either? I always have more. 
Setup Time: Give them a setup time like the Flak HT. Gotta brace that sniper rifle!
That'd give infantry some solid counterplay: if you're chasing a sniper, it can't shoot back at you without letting you catch up with it. Futhermore, based on HMGs, I'm fairly sure the sniper won't reload unless set up.
Combine this with a +5 boost to sight and range so they can still fight spotted MGs without having to do the shoot-jump-back thing. Y'know, what they're actually for.
Now that's a pretty interesting idea!  |
But you'll more reliably get a payoff for that dive, rather than the frustration of the sniper getting lucky and your M20 not securing the kill.
Another, much more straightforward solution is to ram their received accuracy through the roof so just about every shot fired at them hits. No more sticking them behind green cover or in buildings: if they take fire, they get hurt.
That means a light vehicle dive will almost always work, as will infantry flanks.
I hear what you're saying, but it kind of sounds like an overcomplicated way to achieve the same goal if you know what I mean
throwing their recieved accuracy through the roof, would not play in favor of skilled players using them correct, but rather just make them way more vulnerable in ways that are outside a players control and it also seems counterintuitive that they should not benefit from buildings, as that would be the most likely place for a sniper to set up. If anything they should get their range and abilities severely nerfed when not in a building (that might actually be an interesting idea to brainstorm). |
Could anyone who just came in here to flame and slag of each others ranks please jump over to the discussion forum on steam which seem to have been made for this very purpose? Otherwise I'll have to ask the moderaters nicely to go in hard on invising anything that is not on topic. 
Snipers are like Raketenwerfers, they're both frustrating to use and frustrating to play against.
The reason for this? They're a 1 man squad. If your dive doesn't work, you get nothing, and thanks to accuracy mechanics its very random if it does.
As a result, the countersniper is usually the play, but this is entirely skill-based: if they're better with snipers than you, expect to lose 360 MP for nothing.
We won't see total Snipers to Pathfinders reworks at this point, but there's another solution we might just get past the Relicdar.
Make all snipers 2-man.
Make them like the Soviet ones: low health on the models (or high received accuracy), but there are two.
This means an attack on a sniper has a much better chance of killing one model and inflict its reinforcement cost on the enemy, but unlikely to get a full wipe.
Then you give the 360 MP 2-man sniper squad a reinforcement cost of 150 MP.
If the enemy is consistently pulling off dives, that sniper is going to bleed you out right back.
I respectfully disagree that this as a good solution to sniper spamming as two sniper units grouped together will still get the insta wipe on the opponents sniper and force you to chase deep with light vehicles. The soviet two-man squad was removed with good reason and increasing the reinforcement cost with another 60 mp is not something I think will get to the bottom of the problem. |
Good to have you back buddy. I might have time to do a review this week depending on how crazy it gets at work.
Other than that you might benefit from reading up on this guide I made, which should give some pretty good and general insights that are still relevant 
https://www.coh2.org/guides/70864/from-recruit-to-veteran |
You are right, but Tiger II is exception, which was even moved to call-in section (with some UI issues). Also, it has restriction for other reason - it is super heavy, and like other super heavies limited to one.
Yes you are not wrong. But I think my argument about snipers is still warrented, although I think other people have also put some pretty good ideas into play about making it more of a recon unit.
I could also see a situation where the sniper would not be able to autofire when you were attack moving it around, and rather you had to actively target a unit for it to fire. Something like the hold fire just being permanently activated. This would make them a lot more micro intensive, but probably also warrant a drop in the price. |
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