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"Abilities aren't hard counters as they are not always on the field"
This makes no sense. A hard counter is something that, once you encounter it, it is already basically too late for your unit to survive/stay on the field. AT strafes that are going to kill tanks in a single pass are absolutely hard counters to those tanks. CAS anti-infantry strafe can also be considered a hard counter to soviet infantry, who have to either retreat all the way to the base every time it happens. US can counter this one if they happen to have a vet captain, so in that case the captain would become the hard counter to the strafe - as soon as you hit the "on me" ability, the CAS strafe just become a complete waste of ammo. |
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People didn't cry about the JP4 AS MUCH before because it used to take an average of 3-4 shots to kill it with jackson instead of like now 4-6 shots. The difference is quite astounding actually the way battles play out. |
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why would you need a fuel price reduction? It can already kill the jackson in 3 shots while the jackson has to shoot 4-6 shots to kill it. And with that already signifcant advantage, the jp4 is going to shoot first because it has better vision, and after vet1 it is invisible. In general it is also firing at tanks that are much less heavily armored then axis tanks, and therefor has a much higher penetration rate. And better front armor and a lot more health. The increased fuel cost reflects the advantages this tank has filling the same role Jackson/SU-85 fills, but doing it better. |
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I wish all hard counters took 48 seconds to kill units - this game would be a lot more forgiving.
Assume 2 Jacksons are out - that is still 24 seconds which is about 3 times longer then it takes to kill any one of those jacksons with a pak even if the tiger isn't contributing. Or you could just insta-kill one with a strafe like we've been saying. |
I brought up the cost-effectiveness of the jackson in comparison to the majority of Ostheers tanks in this thread, specifically the tiger (which is the most expensive.) At 125 fuel it hard-counters a 230 fuel tank. In comparison a 125 fuel Pz4 doesn't hard-counter an IS2, nor a Stug or a panther. And so they shouldn't as they're all cheaper. Ofcourse this isn't the case with the jackson. At 125 fuel they easily destroy tigers and Pz4's, and are easily replaceable. It's fine to have this role but its price must be raised to reflect its effectiveness.
Someone here mentioned the jackson costs slightly more than a tiger (because of the tech)? That would be true if the USF didn't have such a huge early game advantage against Ostheer. Map control = more resources.
I will await your reply.
The 125 fuel Pz4 doesn't hard-counter an IS2 because it also is a good infantry counter. The jackson is completely 1-dimensional. It is going to get completely owned by any kind of AT gun or infantry or off-map strafe because the only thing it can do, at all, is counter tanks. If you are going to increase the cost of the jackson, you need to make it at least halfway decent vs infantry. |
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"just like in magic the gathering" is even better than "just like in real life". Well done my friend. |
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Ah... the "just like in real life" argument - classic. |
Nonsense. You seem to be forgetting the "strategy" part of RTS. Managing resources such that you can kill your enemy's decisive weapon is definitely part of the game, and always has been.
I understand why competitive players fetishise micro, but to claim that any facets that don't rely entirely on micro contradict the "principles of the game" is patently ridiculous.
The "strategy" part of an RTS is that when you fail to kill enemy units in any engagements, you should be able to kill them outside of engagements? Good strategy - seems legit.
Managing resources should be about how you spend them on actual units. I'm fine with offmap abilities playing supporting roles to augment your units but not as a replacement for them or the main damage dealer for your army. |
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when you can so easly trade 120 munis on this stupid loiter strafe to kill at least 1 jackson if not more, it is hard to argue that the jackson is "too cost efficient". Axis players aren't happy with a resource trade of 120 munis for a minimum of 350 mp 125 fuel?
A lot of the offmap skillplane abilities are stupid - it goes against most basic principles of the game if you can just kill your opponents units with no micro outside of engagements with the click of a button and the cost of a few munis.
The strafe does more damage in less time than the p47 that axis players love to complain about (while targeting tanks with much less health), and costs half as many munitions. Even when you are in the process of dodging the strafe, it adjusts its aim to hit the edges of your tank and still does full damage. How is there even an argument about this? |
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Everyone here in the thread missing the real point of the thread - the original poster doesn't know how to play, so all your suggestions are invalid. Somehow he still hasn't commented on why he doesn't just make 1-2 paks - literally the best AT option in the game to support his tigers. You guys can keep replying to him with many different options (as we have done) but you can't teach someone who has already made up their mind. He didn't make this thread to find out how to deal with it - in his mind this thread was made to teach all of you something that he already knows to be fact. Maybe a mod will think this is trolling, but I think it is important even for the poster to realize that this is what he is doing so he can think about whether he is really better than and knows more than the experienced players who have come to reply on his thread.
Any USF player knows that you can't just "replace the jackson whenever you want". If you are playing 4v4 and the game has gone long, maybe you are floating enough fuel to just replace them as you lose them in a game that you are already handily winning anyway. But in 1v1 and even 2v2, if you lose your jacksons you are going to have a very hard time recovering. There is also the issue of build time - they build pretty slow considering you have basically no decent AT while you are waiting. |
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