Maybe once every second tank they shoud come in pairs ? |
But the thing is that the field presence is mostly about what U spend manpower on. U must spend it on the pioneers instead of on other units. Plus I dont agree that pios are so terrible at fighting. Very often they'll win engagements for you as gren vs rifle is usually lost. Grend+pio vs rifles U win. You must remember that overall US has many more units on the field. The pio doing sth all the time behind the lines makes the situation even worse. Ì'm not biasrd sgainst USF but once again I dont think smoke amd blitz is wrong, especially for ost. |
Hi. By field presence I mean the fact that both the tank and pio are out of action. Pio is more than 200 manpower which means one gren squad or mg or mortar not on the field. As US you dont need to spend that manpower on that unit because you have the crew. You basically have many more other squads running around. Bear in mind that pios have other jobs to do such us building base structures which means thay can't cap at the same time. Think about when ost has 2 tanks. To repair them quickly U meed 2 pios which means over 400 manpower. Very often you simply dont have 2 pios on the field and Ur tanks must wait to be repaired one after another. Again crews in such situation are "get out of jail" solution. Better players are aware how important pios are and if they eliminate even one they affect ost tanks severely. Generally I can't agree with anything U wrote above. U don't seem to realise how powerful eg flame pios can be. |
I do see it this way, however. Of course this is just an example. You can always retreat the crew just before the vehicle gets destroyed and still have the free bazooka. I know players who pop the crew out and replace it with echelon and they have a "free" bazooka squad early game. Remeber that m20 can be extremely effective when used properly for its price, even without using its crew at all. Bearing in mind that the crew can repair and cap points its super effective. When an ost player builds a vehicle they can neither cap nor repair with it (much less capping power, if you add the fact that you don't get units for teching, and you need to build sth with engineer! after teching). The fact that you have any vehicle very quickly back on the battlefield because of crew repairs itself is "getting out of jail". But to the point - we must kindly diagree - I really don't think blitz and smoke are OP. |
Thanks for your replays.
Cookiezandcream - you're right - no thopsons but the point is still valid. It's too much in one - and either this or more raw power. Many players just don't understand what it means to retreat two units (tank+pio)to make repairs. Field presence goes down too much for too long, especially when your opponent just drives back to safety and the crew repairs the vehicle themselves.
Rocket - remember that losing pios while repairing is even bigger manpower drain. Plus the fact that even pios can't repair crits. And repairing a vehicle too close to frontline is basically the player's mistake/conscious risk. More often I saw bazooka crew fininshing off scoutcars after being almost destroyed by them.
I still don't think smoke or blitz should be nerfed before real, especially early game, US "get out of jail abilities" get nerfed too. It's just my opinion. |
It seems that ppl like playing the underdogs. |
How about giving it capture territory ability at vet 0?
Or make it possible to put one squad of infantry on it - like in reality 5-6 men would sit and ride on it - they were called somehow I don;t remeber now? |
hi
I'd like to join the discussion.
I have a feeling that concentrating purely on calling both smoke and blitz "get out of jail abilities" is wrong. They can only be called in such a way when a player is competent enough to secure the retreat path and has picked a doctrine which allows smoke. Using these abilities effectively is difficult. You need to prepare munitions for each of them, plus after you retreat you must retreat another unit to repair the vehicle. Ostheer is usually starved for half-game and must really carefully pick what to spend munitions on. The opponent should prepare for the chase in exactly the same way; that is collect munitions on abilities plus plan how to conduct a chase using numerical superiority. The players who count on just rushing onto the enemy (some count on just waiting) and killing armour with massed AT, bazookas, jacksons, etc. should be aware that the beauty of this game is that it is not about spamming. Remember that most of American units have magic buttons that cost ammo and deal more than decent amounts of damage against armour. The thing is that you have to be a skilled player to use them well. Part of the problem is that very often the match involves a US player overextending and losing units one afer another while the ost player skillfully manages to repel all attacks save muntions and fuel for much more expensive equipment (teching etc). At the same time US player should have built a good selection of units that can be used to finish of any armour. You cant have both - losing expensive equipment for half of the match and than be surprised that something can defeat you.
Another argument would be that there are more and cheaper abilities on the US side. My favourite is: the bazooka crew in a minelying infantry killing vehicle who can cap while repairing a crit and be upgraded with thompsons. In my opinion, Rambo abilities like that should really be called "get out of jail free" ability plus they make the game completely not what it is supposed to be - no combined arms. |
My favourite use for them is to pick a dropped bar or lmg. Then you have a possibility to buy just one shreck. Its enough to scare vehicles and they don't lose anti inf capabilities. Also when a squad wipe happens U don't feel than negative about losing 120 muniton investment and all your pak cover (which I believe is one of the biggest problems with them - often a full heath squad gets killed wihout having done anything significant with its 2 shrecks) . Having 2 squads like that is great and makes them much more versatile. Add a pack behind and its nice. I'd love to see a change that would allow to buy one shreck for them at a time. It would be a player's decision whether to buy one or two shrecks. |
I understand every argument. Still, my opinion is that they are really fragile and you have to be much more super careful with them compared to other elite infantry. They excell in certain situations but not in as many as pure spam of GIs. Game skills are of course important but I really think that balancing an army with 4 man squads is difficult. Very often random performance of pzgrens or squad wipes etc that happen to them, make them very difficult to use. These are all facts. And I'm not as stupid as U assume. Actually U shouldn't be calling anybody like that. |