That's basically from where we come from because it was a disaster. Doctrines should add flavor not fill gaps.
The problem with your topic is that you're offering zero solution. You're just yelling "WATER'S WET" on all your responses.
There is no need for rocket science's degree to understand and acknowledge the T70 is too good. BUT it requires much more than such topic and yelling to find a balanced solution for the Soviet faction as a whole with all the constraints imposed by the game and Relic.
1. Idk if you're aware but I don't take most people in this thread even remotely seriously because they don't play the game or they play the game at a level where balance just doesnt matter. You guys are akin to overweight drunk soccer fans arguing about the formation of their favorite team. Ofc you're all confident as hell while doing so which makes it even more entertaining. The arrogance in these posts berating me is truly mind blowing.
2. The assumption that there needs to be some grand overhaul of the soviet faction before the t70 can be nerfed is apparently made by you but not me. I've literally posted a list of possible changes in this thread. Then again I'm a mediocre player so I really shouldn't be the no1 authority on this. However my takes are anything but yelling the same thing over and over. I just don't create giant walls of texts like a true forum warrior.
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Yes.
Because, for the 100000th time in CoH2 lifespan, non doctrinal infantry mid game does not exist for soviets and without this crutch, upgraded inf roflstomps them now only in mid game, previously in end game as well, because nothing except maxims was capable of holding its on in mid and late game in regards to stock infantry.
The whole "T70 carries soviets" meme only applies to Osttruppen anyways. Doctrine abilities exist. They are part of the game. You can't balance around a doctrineless game. |
It's mind boggling to me how Soviets have gotten a free pass to have blatantly OP units/abilities over the years while all other factions have swung wildly between UP and OP.
This is basically what I was getting at. T70 has been op for the entire lifespan of coh2 and everyone just accepts it. |
1. i checked some of my replays (mixed automatch and tourney) and the flamer timing was anything between 2:40 and 4:05, which doesnt say alot about the usual game obviously but you can get the flamer significantly faster than 3:30 when you rush munitions (which i usually do as soviets)
2. what i meant was that soviets reach their full t0 army with either 4cons+ce or 3cons+2ce earlier than any other army completes their t0/t1 army, combined with a flamer push soviets should get good portion of the map and harras their opponents income. excluding very aggresive early game play like 221/ostruppen
3. nothing to add, youre basically right. of course soviets plays from behind against ostruppen but i wouldnt set that sitiation as their normal early game situation, even tho ostruppen is played a ton
The 4 con timing push is underrated even against osttruppen. There's a short window during OH T2 tech and PG build time where you're actually ahead. Ofc if you push and all your cons are damaged PG is gonna clean up the field but it's a small powerspike nonetheless. |
Why Soviets Brits are OP
Other than 6 man support weapons soviets are a generally rounded faction with strong late game that relies on superior numbers or tank destroyers/kv-2.
I mean I could have made a thread about brits being op but that would just be preaching to the choir. I loathe brits as much as the next person. You actually think Soviets rely on tank destroyers? I mean get that you're not much of an ATGun guy but I feel like Su76 or Su85 play much less of a role than double zis in 1v1. |
Then the faction is not OP (though u mention the intent of the title is to bring up discussion) but rather poorly designed.
SU vs OKW match up been skewed (in your opinion) would mostly be attributed to OKW problems rather than needing SU changes (IMO)
SU vs OH match up atm, i don't think there's a huge uphill battle till we talking about games making it pass the 25/30 min mark and Soviets manage to get on equal footing and have everything upgraded without losing vet on their units. At that point i don't think it's imba but rather than Soviets have an easier execution.
What i found amusing is that you are suggesting nerfs towards Soviets at the key moments they are at their weakest furthering increasing the problem.
I'm sure you realise the problem in logic behind this.
Well see it this way, there's a universal consensus that osttruppen and 5men are too strong. However if you fix these you gotta adress some of the Soviet Late game issues too. The entire reason I made this thread (apart from being bored) was that the soviet issues are rarely talked about because they get overshadowed by the early mid wehrmach powerspike. |
thanks man, i will start my research into the build order. but i really have to ask: i having problems finding knowledge about different commanders in order to know when to use them? im just choosing randomly most of the time, is there any tips you can give me about the 3 commander that i chose in that match? those 3 i intend to master first  , thanks for the help 
There's too many variables to make up general rules. There's commanders that completely change the game like the assault grenadier one you picked. I wouldn't recommend it for a beginner because Assault Grenadiers are built instead of grenadiers most of the time and are quite a cheesy unit. It's better to train with regular grenadiers. But in the end of the day you just need to have fun and experiment with the different commanders.
https://www.coh2.org/guides/33767/commander-tiers this is mostly outdated but should give you a decent orientation |
There's a thread by Syphon which gathers data for like 2 months post patch and the only faction with a heavy discrepancy in performance is Soviets been "UP". As far as tournaments and scrims goes, i don't think there are stats. But it's not hard to realise most people pre patch were playing Soviets and now most people just migrated to USF/UKF. With T1/T2 strats mostly been suicide to use against OH.
You've said it, IF and only IF, Soviets survive the early/mid game they have a strong gameplay. The solution is not nerfing everything OH is doing atm, cause team game wise, i don't think things are too far off.
While you might bring overall valid arguments or points of discussion, i think at the end of the day the final results are completely different. Whether you look at automatch or tournament performance. For all that is "imba" from Soviets, it's not enough to make them win equally across the board as the other factions.
It comes down to this:
I think there can be little doubt that Soviet vs OKW is skewed towards soviets.
Soviet vs OH is harder to judge and I don't doubt for a second that in automatch Osttruppen and maybe even AssGrens dominate. But imo wehr is forced into closing the game early on otherwise they're fighting an extreme uphill battle due to the reasons mentioned in op. This goes beyond reasonable asymmetrical balance imo. |
First of all i would like to ask you (answer base on 1v1)
1- If they are OP, why is it that the performance across automatch, both in high ranking and average across the board and during tournaments is poor.
2- IF the whole answer revolves around OH META, then wouldn't that mean that UKF/USF/OH are OP or stronger as the former 2 factions can deal with OH?
Now i'll reply adding teamgames into consideration.
I think what you try to address doesn't solve the discrepancy between 1v1, teamgames and inherent Soviet design problem.
I'll argue that Soviets for 2v2 and up is fine, as the game plays differently and there's a higher chance to make it into the late game. Most weakness are mitigated by the gamemode or complementary faction.
Regarding nerfs which would give room to buff other aspects, i only agree with 2 (Zis barrage, but not necessarily in that way + T70 power) and i'll add Ram needing a rework to be more interactive (problem is when combined with offmap). As for compensations i think you are just addressing superficial issues without dealing with core problems.
The nerfs to OH still miss AG based strats (or any T1 skip at all) and PG main problem is not their effectiveness in the mid to late game as to warrant vet 2/3 nerfs. If you revert their timing change then you basically made them have the same problems they had before (aka been mostly irrelevant). PG ties the gap in AI, specially when OH early muni is key.
FHT nerfs would be only because Soviets get access to T3 based units really late and they don't have the same flexibity to tech infantry AT without losing all AI (Penals) or having mp available to call Guards. I don't think the FHT is OP on the USF/UKF match ups.
In the same way OKW needs some early tech flexibity and healing, Soviets mp tech expenditure early on and T3 timing needs a look out, specially if you plan on nerfing the T70. Maybe take a look at M5 timing if T3 arrives earlier.
It's complicated because it's really only a question of whether Soviets can survive the early mid game imo. Ostheer relies on cheese to delay the T70 in order to win the game. Now I guess in a way you could call that a balanced state but in my mind it's not. Is there a way to look up the recent tourney stats? I understand your claim that UKF and USF can deal with Ostheer better considering recent tourneys but I'm starting to doubt whether it's true. I can't really comment on UKF at all but USF is extremely hard to play vs 5men and double pak play. |
Cheers mate for telling me using fancy words that I suck at the game. That's not cool.
I don't think elitism should be part of our lovely community. If you disagree with others, don't rub your playercard in people's faces. You can be wrong. Actually, you're wrong on endless points. Even elchino says you are.
It's a video game with a few thousand players it really shouldn't offend you. And btw I don't even know whether you suck at it, I was talking about the average coh.org population.
Edit: Calling this community lovely? Okay... |
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