Profile of Cannonade

Gonna barge in like a boss and suggest what someone posted earlier (who?)dps boost for conscripts at vet3.

Then vanilla v3 Cons would utterly destroy vanilla v3 Grens.

Not to mention other infantry, especially Support Teams.

Waaah Im mad cos I dont get what I want! Who cares about balance/design! Mewantsit!
Waaah Im gonna attack and insult everyone who disagrees with me! Even forum staff and s.strategist!
Waah my thread can only have people in it who gimme what I want!

Though its not strictly ontopic, I just wanted to point out there is abit of danger in (hopefully) increasing Penals mid-long efficacy.

At cost, if for example Penals cameout with roughly G43 equivalent SVTs (that I hope and suggest), they sort of should be better than LMG Grens, when further upgraded with DPs. But Im ok with risking that for starters, it can be tuned as needed thereafter.

First of all, because in a long range engagement, Grens still have the RNade advantage, whereas I see it that Penals would keep the Satchel (which is operable only much closer in) and the lack of a direct armor disabler. Otherwise I would be tempted to suggest a MP increase to 400. But seeing as they lack an ATNade, and Satchel is out of their optimum, I think the 360 cost is reciprocated.

Though Penals, perhaps, have been designed as a "suicide unit", its not consistent with the rest of Sov infantry optimum ranges. Cons and Shocks already have a close optimum. Guards try to fill the longer range gap, but are natively saddled with 2xPTRS. Sov needs Penals to work like a G43 Gren in terms of mid-long and also somewhat in regards to moving accuracy to fill the gap other Sov infantry simply cant.

Second, as Ive said before, I propose a full spectrum upgrade option to allow Penals to diversify into the "gap" roles left outside of Cons, around Doctrinal Guard/Shock, and to bolster the vanilla unit variety for non-callin Commanders.

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1) Change Penals to have SVTs which roughly equal G43s, but accounting for normal infantry small arms equations in regards to the size of opposing units (which now also are mostly unarmored).

2) Implement a variety of upgrades from which to choose ONE, at fair Muni costs (especially so as to not step on Guards as another natively diverse and upgradeable option):
-2x DPs: (which should tbh be improved for both Guards and for purposes of this Penal proposal) so that Penals with DPs perform slightly better overall than LMG Grens at all respective ranges. An increase in DP setup time might be necessary to offset this. This so that Penals can upgrade to face LMG units for raw dps, especially in scaling towards lategame. Button presents a problem here. If Penals have Button too, it marginalises Guards. Personally, I would move Button to PTRS for Guard and Penals.

-2xPTRS: Primarily to support non-Guard Commanders as a light AT option. As above, I suggest moving Button to PTRS, because frankly the dual role of DPs as both a Buttoner and an infantry weapon is a weird split, that I think is limiting the DPs infantry firepower element, AND limiting PTRS AT function as dedicated weapons for those specific purposes.

-1xFlamer + Full PPHSs: Primarily to support non-Shock Commanders. I dunno how used this would be, as it completely reverses the otherwise SVT/G43 style optimum, but I think it would find uses often enough to fill the gap if you need more close assault potential, especially in conjunction with Satchel. Depending on Muni cost and how this variant pans out, a small armor upgrade might also be conducive in this option.

Point being to change Penals into a very diversifiable core unit that can, at cost, handle long range combat in a way Cons cannot, fill the gap in all directions for Shock/Guard/Non-callin Commanders (and why not Partisan ones too), and provide a vanilla backbone to the ubiquitous Cons, that is good at whichever specific function it is upgraded to (though not as good as the true dedicated Callins).

Know what I mean?

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I know some will respond with historical accuracy comments, and suggestions that they be changed to Strelky, and such. Fsct of the matter though, is Penals where often given the most dangerous tasks, and usually equipped appropriately to perform them.

Their "expendable" nature was not rooted in wanting to just kill them off, but in the fact they could be directly ordered and forced to take the missions nobody else would. The kinds of missions that the rate of attrition would have been unnacceptable to order especially conscripts to die for. Its an ambiguous line, and Penal legions are an enormous area of ethical and military controversy, but pragmatically they simply where more expendable than others, as punishment for their perceived crimes. Nonetheless, especially in the cold mathematics of war, it is pointless to send men to die on an impossible mission. Even Penal men (and especially these men) are too valuable to waste with no useful outcome. So when they where given these dangerous missions, they where supported with equipment and backup, as much as possible, so that they could atleast have a chance of success, despite rates of attrition unconscionable for other units.

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Important note: Another reason why Penals really stand out as the missing link in Sov infantry structure, is how well Cons synch with them. Especially thanks to one extremely crucial and almost as underused ability as Penals are, which is Merge.

A Con build can indefinately continue to Merge into and support Penals, at very equitable cost, for much greater combat efficiency, than Cons themselves carry. As interesting as Merge is with Support Teams and Shocks/Guards, it can really stand to shine in terms of constantly reinforcing and keeping Penal units (with the options and diverse effectiveness Ive tried to suggest above) as a unit that really never leaves the field. Hell, they even have Oorah to help them relocate between fronts!

Its a synergy made in gaming heaven, and such a sorely missing element in Sov play, specifically because right now, Penals just arent worth it, so this synergy rarely if ever can be capitalised on. And again, another crucial reason why Penals really are the missing link. Everything else is there just waiting to support for Penals to be improved/changed to take the role that belongs to them.

TLDR: Penals, if changed as I propose, stand to synergise with Cons (due to Cons ATNade and Merge especially) in such a way that it takes the pressure off of all Commanders and allows for more baseline diversity. This unit really is the one that can stand to be the binding glue between Cons/Guards/Shocks and even Partisans that works togetger with them, filling the gaps the others cannot, whilst also synergising with them in a way that together they are greater than their parts.

Katitof: I dunno wth you are talking about, but it seems to be full of imaginary things that I never said or claimed. So yeah, means nothing to me.

Its not snarky at all.

Its matter of fact and accurate.

And Ive contributed far more usefulness than you, as evidenced here:
http://www.coh2.org/topic/22935/my-thoughts-&-ideas-on-conscripts/post/206037

Remember, its YOU who got banned for being snarky and useless, and it seems you still havent learned anytshing from it.
Basically you are just attacking anyone who disagrees with you.
Not gonna get far like that.

Cons are fine.

Penals are the missing link.

what i dont want to see is pure con spam. look at how ivan used to play (and lenny still plays). con, con, con, con, con, con... if you make cons scale well into late game, why would anyone bother to build anything other than t0 units that are cheap to build and reinforce?

Unfortunately that seems to be what some posters are trying to bring this thread down to.