U need alot of luck with jackson for it to be effective. Some games its a beast. Others, it has trouble penetrating a vet2 p4 with skirts
Get an SU-85 to vet 2+ the fire rate is insane. plus i can trust it to penetrate heavy armor
I really dont think you have used it.
Damage aside, the su85 can penetrate more
Su-85 is only a beast from vet 2.Jackson is a beast straight up.Atleast thats the feeling i get when i'm up against them.Whenever i face su-85 i know all i need is one partial flank and i can take out even 2 of them.I have to be very careful before considering such a move against 2 jacksons.And i know against su-85 i can run away ,it can't chase and finish me off.Jackson can prevent axis from building up a critical mass of armor because it kills,su-85 deters more than kills and after a certain level unless ur VP win has been achieved axis will not be deterred because panthers/tigers have hit critical mass or KT is out supported by others. |
I think the best (and only true, for that matter) infantry-support commander ingame, for ostheer or otherwise, is Close Air Support. you don't get the fancy camouflage, or g43s, or sprint, or even any unique elite infantry, but you get all the munitions you need to spam out all the LMGs, Shrecks, Tellers, rifle-nades, bunkers, you could ever want, and offmaps every 30 seconds for any situation you need.
Being allowed to go all-out on upgrades and abilities that you'd have to carefully 'ration' munitions for with other doctrines is more than enough to make up for any lack of direct infantry-influencing items in the doctrine, and all the strikes synergize really well with the infantry-heavy army composition. It's probably the single most fun doctrine in the game at the moment, I find, and possibly the doctrine that offers the most unique playstyle currently.
Of course, if you missed the Make Love Not War event, then hard luck. Relic should really put the doctrine, and Advanced Warfare, up for sale at some point.
I missed it. 
Can this be obtained via war spoils? |
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Jackson kills,su-85 can push back and needs support.It can't finish off.Ur DPS thing over time ignores realities,tanks will hardly stay in ur firing cone for 20 secs and let u get shot after shot.All u get is 1-3 shots before it moves back,smoke or away.Jackson is a beast in this regard and can kill while backtracking which su-85 can't do against any save low health pz 4s.Jacksons are a terror in number.2 jacksons are far far better than 2 su-85s.
As for that short memory thing.In case u forgot back then the t-34/85 was shit before they buffed it.If it was what it is today no one would bother with su-85.Also u conviniently forgot su-85 used to be very mobile back then,certainly not the lumbering fatso of today. |
I have to disagree. The Ostheer mortar is really good, it outclasses the LeIG and the Packhowitzer in my opinion. Two of those reign havoc on any army.
Additionally they have the mortar half track, which counters team weapons and mortars, furthermore it's placed it's placed in the breakthrough doctrine, which is definitely one of the best doctrines in game.
I don't dispute that ost mortar is good ,just that it can't match the range of any of the rest.Both pack howitzer and 120 mm can bombard it with impunity and are also more durable.So if any of these pieces are bombing u,mortar counter battery isn't going to work for ost.U have to deal with it with infantry.And ost infantry especially on attack is hmm. |
Some suggestions for making Ostheer not as crap going forward into the future.
More commanders/redo old commanders so they have game starting call in infantry, for example Assault Grens. Some interesting early game infantry call ins could be: Sturmpio's, Panzergren Infrared STG 44's, and a higher caliber mortar.
Better mid game armor. Currently Ostheer suffers extremely due to T3 being made entirely useless due to Jackson's which can come out fairly early into the game. So I would either buff more units in t3, or reduce the cost significantly.
Making Ostheer indirect better. Right now Ostheers two best indirect fire units are the mortar, and mortar HT. Meaning late game when your having to deal with massive roaming blobs of infantry your only counters are mortars that have to get really lucky to kill more than 2-3 models in one hit. The LefH needs a huge buff and so does the Panzerwerfer, I would also like to see more rocket artillery added to Ostheer.
These are mostly pipe dreams.Good to hear nonetheless,since i often get impression no one cares abt this faction.
If atleast they fixed panzergrenadiers,teching costs,mg42 and any one of the arty pieces(lefh or werfer) i would be happy.I just want an advanced infantry that can atleast stand upto to enemy elite infantry,an mg that can let grens fight at range instead of being overrun all the time and t4 not inaccesible. |
So your ignoring the facts and putting in scenarios. Simple as that. The SU85 CAN kill armor better and especially with Mark Vehicle. Whether or not that is the meta is not relevant. There has been units with Turrets that did 240 Damage a shot since the game has been introduced. This means the ONLY thing that is special about the Jackson AT ALL is its mobility. Which is balanced by its terrible HPs and Armor.
I can AS the Soviets do better with Dual T34/85s out of Guards Motor then I can with a Jackson. Then I have a combined 1600HPs doing 240 a shot at closer ranges and getting better Penetration as a result AND having AI.
The 240 damage a shot at least in 1v1 where YOU CANT POSSIBLY have Mark Vehicle (as USF) is just a Straw Man.
Especially when you consider there is no IS2 or ISU152 or hell even KV1 for USF.
You can try all you want and throw in all this "What-Ifs" but the stats do not lie. All the Soviets need to do is snare a tank and the SU85 will do better then the Jackson. And Soviets do not lack snares. Now most people wont do that in the current meta because the Teching costs are fucked. That has nothing to do with the units.
Edit: And sorry Double Zook rifles now that is hilarious. You must be talking about 4v4 there...
What facts?What are u going to believe..perceptions on paper or actual ingame realities?
Don't try to twist the issue from su-85 to t-34/85.I have never said t-34/85 is a worse option than su-85,only that jackson is better than su-85 which most will agree and that jackson plus pershing would be even more intimidating than is-2 and su-85,especially because americans have uber infantry as well.
Again u try to twist things onto mark target which is totally irrelevant,nobody uses mark traget with su-85,but rather with t-34/85s.And Mark target is not available with is-2 ,so the actual scenario in discussion doesn't even take place.Its not me putting in scenarios,its you.
Let's ask the forumers themselves then since ur so convinced ,what is better..su-85 or jackson.I'm all up for a poll.I as a predominately german player can say with close eyes jackson. |
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As usual everyone going on abt OKW/USF/Soviets which are by the way the 3 factions with direct fire supermortar type units.The 120mm,75mm IEG and pack howitzer.Ostheer has none,not even a doctrinal option so its mortar can't fight it,even though grens which need to be static and in cover to get DPS suffer the most wipes from this unit.Another slap for wehr i guess.Yay for the the flexible faction. |
Your also forgetting that the Soviet faction has mines and AT nades. You kill snared tanks with the SU85 this has always been the case.
Now if USF could run around planting 30 Muni mines everywhere and tossing AT nades rather then having to be Vet 1 and have the buggy often misfiring AT Rifle Nade then your point could stand.
Big Damage Per Shot doesnt mean it kills anything faster. The SU85 still can drop a tank faster and much much faster with Mark Vehicle. Remember the SU85 DOES THE SAME DAMAGE PER SHOT AS THE JACKSON WHEN MARK VEHICLE IS UP. Hell even the T34/76 does(and it has a turret! Dear lord lets not talk about the T34/85!) OMGOP!!!!
The damage is just that. Wow I can possibly do 240 damage to you before you blitz away rather than 160. Not to mention the lower Pen that the Jackson has. Oh yeah and of course it cant focus site....
Edit: Also in your example your going all balls to the walls crazy to take out a Tank Destroyer with a Tank? Thats like trying to throw Rifles at an Obersoldaten...You better have more then 1....
And ur also forgetting USF can afford double bazooka rifles to support,each have their advantages.
Mark vehicle is doctrinal.Is mark vehicle even available with an is-2 doctrine that u can combo?In t-34/85 doctrine,no one gets su-85 but waits for call-in then uses mark target with that.
What u don't understand is that u can turn away and su-85 won't be able to follow due to about mobility,if flanked its dead.Jackson can not only track ur flank by turret rotation,also demolish u while backtracking unless pathfinding is terrible.Jackson can also chase down wounded vehicles(not talking abt okw blob) which su-85 just can't.
Focus sight is often a weakness for su-85 because of its terrible mobility and inability to turn in time its cone.No my example is that pershing plus jackson would be far more terrifying than is-2 plus su-85 which is intimidating enough.
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Asggrens are bad after 5 mins and require good micro,but they are only option against USF.Without assgrens and stug E who do u think will save u vs rifles and light vehicles?Certainly not the popcornsprayer42. |
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Quit versus USF unless ur better skilled than him.Really wehrmacht right now is just a dose of depressant. |
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