M20 over nerf rofl

I would suggest a skirts reduction in cost instead of mines, It would not make sense to have 50 muni tellers and m20 mines costing the same

+1

Hell, I'd rather see the skirts either a) come stock or b) have price changed to like 50 mp and 10 fuel. Not a huge cost but it delays the stuart a bit more and I'd honestly rather pay that and save some muni.

M20 crew zook had never been an issue in years and then suddenly top players are complaining about it and hop without much thought about it, let's remove it and nerf even more the unit.

In my opinion, balance team screw it hard with their strait buff to riflemen that nobody asked for and now we're facing those stupid nerf on units that were and still are completely fine on their own but atm are bringing to much, to early and with less opportunity to be countered to the faction thanks to riflemen strait buff.
Mark my words I'm pretty sure we'll see Stuart and AAHT nerf in a close future just because the so called balance team isn't able to acknowledge and accept their error and correct it.

But Schu and Riegel are fine on 251?

Of course they are- because the unit doesn't do anything against infantry.

M20 crew zook had never been an issue in years and then suddenly top players are complaining about it and hop without much thought about it, let's remove it and nerf even more the unit.

In my opinion, balance team screw it hard with their strait buff to riflemen that nobody asked for and now we're facing those stupid nerf on units that were and still are completely fine on their own but atm are bringing to much, to early and with less opportunity to be countered to the faction thanks to riflemen strait buff.
Mark my words I'm pretty sure we'll see Stuart and AAHT nerf in a close future just because the so called balance team isn't able to acknowledge and accept their error and correct it.

Yet with in these year it M20 has received massive buff like:
-Manpower cost from 340 to 240
-M20 accuracy from 0.75/0.475/0.2 to 0.55/0.45/0.25
-Weapon accuracy increases with veterancy: +10%/+15%/+15%
-Veterancy requirements lowered from 880/1760/3520 to 500/1000/2000
-Veterancy 3 reduces mine deployment time from 12 to 7 seconds.
-Veterancy 3 increases stealth detection radius by 10; goes up to 35.

Not to mention the tech changes.

The unit was OP. Actually many USF units where OP but that was intentional because it was counter weight by the tech limitations. Once the tech limitation where removed these units had to be adjusted.

M20 crew zook had never been an issue in years

The M20 changed, but Lieutenant tier did.

On release, LT tier had a BAR Lieutenant, .50 cals without the vet 0 AP, the M20 and an unusable, handbrakeless AAHT. If you went M20, it was your AT.

So it had some tools to fight back so it didn't get splattered. If it didn't, one light vehicle could all but hard counter the tier.


Lieutenant tier now has a Bazooka Lieutenant, Vet 0 AP .50 cals, the M20 and the Stuart. Everything in it can kill a 222.

With that, the bazooka was overkill, so they removed it.

Yet with in these year it M20 has received massive buff like:
-Manpower cost from 340 to 240
-M20 accuracy from 0.75/0.475/0.2 to 0.55/0.45/0.25
-Weapon accuracy increases with veterancy: +10%/+15%/+15%
-Veterancy requirements lowered from 880/1760/3520 to 500/1000/2000
-Veterancy 3 reduces mine deployment time from 12 to 7 seconds.
-Veterancy 3 increases stealth detection radius by 10; goes up to 35.

Not to mention the tech changes.

The unit was OP. Actually many USF units where OP but that was intentional because it was counter weight by the tech limitations. Once the tech limitation where removed these units had to be adjusted.

While you are at it, can you list the change to any other units in the game because that's pretty much as relevant to the topic.

Anyway it has nothing to do with the Zook nerf. If the M20 was so blatantly OP during all this time I wonder why we only see Top players using USF faction since the last patch came out.

At the end, if M20 AI performance were too good, while not nerfing them instead of removing the zook?

The M20 changed, but Lieutenant tier did.

On release, LT tier had a BAR Lieutenant, .50 cals without the vet 0 AP, the M20 and an unusable, handbrakeless AAHT. If you went M20, it was your AT.

So it had some tools to fight back so it didn't get splattered. If it didn't, one light vehicle could all but hard counter the tier.


Lieutenant tier now has a Bazooka Lieutenant, Vet 0 AP .50 cals, the M20 and the Stuart. Everything in it can kill a 222.

With that, the bazooka was overkill, so they removed it.

Hum, Luch has tools to fight back with the raketen, SPsherk and Puma around (and mines) but hey it still has enough pen to kill a m20 or even fight equally vs a M8 and defend itself vs t70 or Stuart.
222 has tools to fight back light tanks, kill M20 and fight equally a m8 while having in the same tier pak40 and dual pzshrek + mines.

On release USF was all about superRM which by the time have been nerfed to what they were before the last patch. And the m20 what perfectly fine, so much that nobody was playing USF at high level. Didn't see anyone complain about it.
Then suddenly RM are buffed and the M20 is becoming too strong. I mean we're talking about a unit you need to whoop out the squad (2sec cd if in combat) and then use the bazooka through smoke that can miss or crew be killed or you can even lost the m20 while the squad is out.

In fact what make me think the balance team is full of crap atm is that this mechanism was probably one of the best balanced and interesting in the game. One that need some game awareness, micro, skill and a bit of luck to work. The thing that make you progress on your skill.
And they removed it because of themselve overbuffing the RM and not being able to accept it and correct it.
We're back into USF SuperRM's faction with zero diversity.

Hum, Luch has tools to fight back with the raketen, SPsherk and Puma around (and mines) but hey it still has enough pen to kill a m20 or even fight equally vs a M8 and defend itself vs t70 or Stuart.

excuse me what ?

obv luch beats the m 20 it cost 3 time the fuel, and no luch can't even pen a t 70 much less a Stuart

While you are at it, can you list the change to any other units in the game because that's pretty much as relevant to the topic.
...

Not really they are not relevant to the topic.

Your claim:

M20 crew zook had never been an issue in years and then suddenly top players are complaining about it and hop without much thought about it, let's remove it and nerf even more the unit.

I simply wrong. The m20 did not remain the same during these "years" and contrary to your claim it was not nerfed it was buffed directly and indirectly with the tech changes.

Currently it one of the strongest units of cost and time frame.

excuse me what ?

obv luch beats the m 20 it cost 3 time the fuel, and no luch can't even pen a t 70 much less a Stuart

Then why a 222 that cost barely the same as a M20 should destroy it?

Not really they are not relevant to the topic.

Your claim:

I simply wrong. The m20 did not remain the same during these "years" and contrary to your claim it was not nerfed it was buffed directly and indirectly with the tech changes.

Currently it one of the strongest units of cost and time frame.

M20 was the same during the last patch and nobody complained about it. Try gain.

M20 was the same during the last patch and nobody complained about it. Try gain.

Did the last patch happen before "years"? try again. And people did complain about the M20.

And people not complaining about something is not really an argument. A unit can be broken and people might not complain about it (see Dshk)

Then why a 222 that cost barely the same as a M20 should destroy it?

Then why a m36 that cost barely the same as the Pz IV j should destroy it?

Maybe because 222 is an AT/AI vehicle and M20 is an AI vehicle.
Maybe because the 222 has higher tech cost and comes later.
Maybe because the 222 has lower armor and take damage from infartry.
Maybe because of faction design that makes ostheer lucking in light tanks.

Then why a 222 that cost barely the same as a M20 should destroy it?

Are people seriously arguing with costs again?

Are you seriously ignoring all the utility of the M20 "utility vehicle"?

In my opinion, balance team screw it hard with their strait buff to riflemen that nobody asked for

Have you been on COH2 forums at all from 2017 to 2019? Almost everyone was asking for early game buffs to riflemen.

I suggested early game buffs + vet nerfs, for what it's worth. Now that Rifles can easily hold their own vs Sturms and Volks are significantly delayed it's not so common to get Sturm-ed into Volks-sandbags on your cutoff.

This in turn changes/balances the OKW-US matchup. I've always said the problem with USF was with early game, and now that USF early game is decent everyone realises that many of the other units are incredibly strong and oppressively hard to counter.

In the past: M20 didn't get a chance to shine because you were getting your cutoff sandbagged while kubel was capping the map for a 6 mins Luchs.

Now: You're not getting cutoff and sandbagged, 2 rifle into LT with 50 cal comes really early on most maps, and the m20 + 50 cal will let you cutoff and bleed the OKW player easily, delaying his Luchs significantly and giving you plenty of time to prepare zooks or Stuart.

Are people seriously arguing with costs again?

Are you seriously ignoring all the utility of the M20 "utility vehicle"?

What about 222 utility?
It fights infantry, lights and planes.

Then why a 222 that cost barely the same as a M20 should destroy it?

222 comes a bit later and is AT not AI unit, why does TD beat AI vehicle ?

What about 222 utility?
It fights infantry, lights and planes.

That’s combat utility. The M20 is supposed to be general utility. It has stock smoke and can lay stock riegel mines, not to mention it’s competent at anti infantry.


I think trading some combat power for smoke and riegel mines is acceptable. If the M20 could do all these and could beat the 222 straight up, it would be absolutely broken.

Then why a 222 that cost barely the same as a M20 should destroy it?

Because with the m20 you get:
1. Crew with a free bazooka.
2. Crew with repairs to increse map presence to ridiculous amounts and make rear echelons cap and constantly support instead of repairing.
3. Crew with crit repairs basically rendering fausting it a potential muni sink.
4. Crew that can repair other vehicles to speed it up.
5. Crew that can cap points while, fore example, repairing or shooting their bazooka at 222.
6. You get a non doctrine smoke to get out of trouble and block sight saving other units from trouble or stopping mgs from being effective.
7. You get a teller mine but better because it completely stops hit vehicles - and those vehicles don;t have crews that repair or crit repair.
8. The range on the unit mg very high and often will be used against 4 men squads, which makes it vey potent.
9. Very high speed and acceleration.
10. Possibility to upgrade armour, which even before the upgrade is better than armour on 222.

That is more or less why 222, which costs more or less the same should have similar abilities or at least one ability that is better instead of those abilities. Remeber that 22 is also much more vulnerable to small arms fire

That’s combat utility. The M20 is supposed to be general utility. It has stock smoke and can lay stock riegel mines, not to mention it’s competent at anti infantry.

But... smoke isn't useful out of combat, so its combat utility too!
Plus, its not like 222 can't have smoke as well.

But... smoke isn't useful out of combat, so its combat utility too!
Plus, its not like 222 can't have smoke as well.

are u really counting doc abilities ?

But... smoke isn't useful out of combat, so its combat utility too!
Plus, its not like 222 can't have smoke as well.

Smoke and riegel are doctrinal for ostheer, while the M20 gets them for free.

How would you change the M20 then?