Auber Soldiers : give out a machine four STG.44 red sight

If stgs can immediately provide a reliable counter to shocks then it removes shock from the game. Shocks entire shtick is to close to a range they can do damage and require more than infantry to control them. That's literally their job so saying they are op for that seems unreasonable to say the least.

If stgs can immediately provide a reliable counter to shocks then it removes shock from the game. Shocks entire shtick is to close to a range they can do damage and require more than infantry to control them. That's literally their job so saying they are op for that seems unreasonable to say the least.

Read the test again. There is difference between wining close combat and simply walking strait at the enemy not even using smoke grenade and wining the engagement vs one of the best (if not the best) mid to close range unit that require a doctrine, weapon upgrade, tech and arrives later.

wining close combat and simply walking strait at the enemy not even using smoke grenade

But that's exactly how the unit is supposed to do it in plain 1v1 scenario without abilities used.
You don't engage shocks without lights, outnumbering them or suppression.

Also don't use "they didn't used smoke nades and won" argument, when you didn't used your own either.
Shocks are heavy tanks of infantry, if you make a situation that is to their advantage(no micro, no abilities, pure 1v1), of course they'll perform well, because that's what's supposed to happen with them.

That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with IR STG obers, they would mop the floor with every other infantry squad in game without any fuss in same circumstances.

But that's exactly how the unit is supposed to do it in plain 1v1 scenario without abilities used.
You don't engage shocks without lights, outnumbering them or suppression.

Also don't use "they didn't used smoke nades and won" argument, when you didn't used your own either.
Shocks are heavy tanks of infantry, if you make a situation that is to their advantage(no micro, no abilities, pure 1v1), of course they'll perform well, because that's what's supposed to happen with them.

That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with IR STG obers, they would mop the floor with every other infantry squad in game without any fuss in same circumstances.

Thanks for jumping in to disagree with me once more without even reading.

I did not perform any test enchino7 did. Now have a nice day.

Read the test again. There is difference between wining close combat and simply walking strait at the enemy not even using smoke grenade and wining the engagement vs one of the best (if not the best) mid to close range unit that require a doctrine, weapon upgrade, tech and arrives later.

I hear ya. But that's shocks design. They lack long range dps and instead have armour to close. It's intended. Entirely.
You pay more on Obers for their versatility. You are paying to ignore cover, to engage at all ranges, you are paying to booby trap points you are paying to clear garrisons with their hand nuke. Eventually you can throw smoke that will entirely prevent shocks from closing or Supress them if you chose. You are paying more and getting ALOT more.
Shocks you are paying for durability. You are most notedly NOT paying for versatility. They do one thing and do it well. Get up in the enemies guts and bayonet the shit out of them.

Thanks for jumping in to disagree with me once more without even reading.

You're welcome.

I did not perform any test enchino7 did. Now have a nice day.

Would you personally performing tests suddenly change how the unit is supposed to work or its role?
No?
Then its irrelevant who did it.

I hear ya. But that's shocks design. They lack long range dps and instead have armour to close. It's intended. Entirely.
You pay more on Obers for their versatility. You are paying to ignore cover, to engage at all ranges, you are paying to booby trap points you are paying to clear garrisons with their hand nuke. Eventually you can throw smoke that will entirely prevent shocks from closing or Supress them if you chose. You are paying more and getting ALOT more.
Shocks you are paying for durability. You are most notedly NOT paying for versatility. They do one thing and do it well. Get up in the enemies guts and bayonet the shit out of them.

It is and it would work against an LMG grenadier, it should not work that effectively 10/0 vs ST44 obers.

It is and it would work against an LMG grenadier, it should not work that effectively 10/0 vs ST44 obers.

Why?

CQC frontal charge specialist vs all range, anti cover generalist with nuclear grenades and fuckload of other combat and non combat utility.

Why CQC specialist put in his favorable conditions to fight shouldn't win?

Why?

CQC frontal charge specialist vs all range, anti cover generalist with nuclear grenades and fuckload of other combat and non combat utility.

Why CQC specialist put in his favorable conditions to fight shouldn't win?

Sorry that you still do not get it but I have to explain to game mechanics to you, waltzing thru open terrain is simply not "favorable conditions" for CQC units it is actually unfavorable.

Next time you have question pls go here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/6640/ask-the-strategist

I since I have no desire to spend my time responding to trolls and bullies, pls move on.
Have a nice day.

That's a lot of words to say "I don't have an answer".

You are ignoring units role, stats, tools and intended use for the sake of another generalization that doesn't work anywhere outside of your head.

That's a lot of words to say "I don't have an answer".

You are ignoring units role, stats, tools and intended use for the sake of another generalization that doesn't work anywhere outside of your head.

PLS stop the personal remarks.

CQC stand for close quarter combat and a couple of centuries ago it stopped involving Zulu warriors attacking in open field against assault rifles. It actually involves techniques to reduces one's casualties on before CQC starts. In order to learn these techniques ask the strategist.

The claim that CQC units should walk thru open ground engagements and win is simply wrong.

In any case, Shocktroops basically lose like 25%/40% till they manage to get face to face (you can retreat without losing meaningful HP). I didn't tried with nades, cause in both cases, both units get access to either smoke + normal nade or nuke + cancer smoke nade.

PLS stop the personal remarks.

CQC stand for close quarter combat and a couple of centuries ago it stopped involving Zulu warriors attacking in open field against assault rifles. It actually involves techniques to reduces one's casualties on before CQC starts. In order to learn these techniques ask the strategist.

The claim that CQC units should walk thru open ground engagements and win is simply wrong.

What about a cqb unit with body armour on? Seems to me like a technique designed to reduce the casualties of thebcqb unit before cqb starts. Being the only unit in the game to posses this I'd say it's to their design.
What alternatives do they have precisely?
Other cqb units have other traits that allow them to close, or engage a more favorable range like sprint or camo or in some cases thompsons that are good out further than bayonet range. Shocks have smoke this is true, but they also have armour. That's all they have to help them close and more than any other unit they need to close.

Since their conception shock have been the ultimate anti infantry squad with the drawback of engagement range. This remains so. As much as ever. Their WHOLE THING is taking extra to beat them up but being unable to do anything unless ontop of the enemy.
Anything extra and the shocks will fall. They excel at fighting lone squads. It's their design.

What about a cqb unit with body armour on?
...

That does not actually say much. There was a time when all infantry had armor instead smaller target size.

The point again is that they should not be able to walk from 35 range of open ground vs ST Obers and win 100%.

They would still be useful if the chance of that was 60%, since they would win if the used any technique to close the distance or vs any infatry that is not St44 Obers.

That does not actually say much. There was a time when all infantry had armor instead smaller target size.

The point again is that they should not be able to walk from 35 range of open ground vs ST Obers and win 100%.

They would still be useful if the chance of that was 60%, since they would win if the used any technique to close the distance or vs any infatry that is not St44 Obers.

The fact that all used to have armour and only 1 remains say a lot to me....

Why should the onus of technique be on the shocks and not the Obers in this case? If the shocks were defending from cover in certain the Obers could, without any technique at all win an engagement against shocks, 2 fold if they had the stgs. Perhaps Obers long range performance should be nerfed no?

Shocks job is to close and deal damage. But are at the absolute mercy to anything that isn't leg powered. They bleed like a whore so using the proper counter hurts them to no end especially since they can't really inflict damage without closing.

The fact that all used to have armour and only 1 remains say a lot to me....

Why should the onus of technique be on the shocks and not the Obers in this case? If the shocks were defending from cover in certain the Obers could, without any technique at all win an engagement against shocks, 2 fold if they had the stgs. Perhaps Obers long range performance should be nerfed no?

Shocks job is to close and deal damage. But are at the absolute mercy to anything that isn't leg powered. They bleed like a whore so using the proper counter hurts them to no end especially since they can't really inflict damage without closing.

The same can be said for the majority of CQC unit and has to do with their design.

They should probably have a refinement discount or move armor to squad abilities so that merged model benefit from it.

I have also suggested that they get timed abilities that increase their durability so that they can allot of damage for a limited time.

All that are irrelevant thou with my point in this case. After the latest patch shock troops over perform and that can be seen by the fact that they can walk across open field against one the deadliest infatry axis has to offer the ST44 obers and win every single time. This should simply not be case.

Click move and winning no matter what is not a good design in the match up.

Lock the thread. IR stgs are fine. They turn the obers into an extremely elite version of pgrens.

The same can be said for the majority of CQC unit and has to do with their design.

They should probably have a refinement discount or move armor to squad abilities so that merged model benefit from it.

I have also suggested that they get timed abilities that increase their durability so that they can allot of damage for a limited time.

All that are irrelevant thou with my point in this case. After the latest patch shock troops over perform and that can be seen by the fact that they can walk across open field against one the deadliest infatry axis has to offer the ST44 obers and win every single time. This should simply not be case.

Click move and winning no matter what is not a good design in the match up.

So in short:
Very strong allied infantry wins vs very strong axis infantry, therefore allied infantry OP?

Do you realize the irony of your statement, that if obers DID beat them, you would have a situation where you have axis infantry that is unbeatable by any allied infantry while in cover?
If IR Obers beat shocks, would you start complaining about IR Obers being OP, as there is no infantry able to contest them 1v1 anymore?

I'm sorry to break it to you, but there are some allied units that are and will be better then axis units and it doesn't mean they are overpowered.

IR obers are NOT by any means a CQC specialist, they are all range generalist infantry that doesn't struggle vs cover, they are packed with utility, 2 offensive nades, booby traps, can suppress and pin at later vet - shocks have nothing on that, just raw durability and firepower - if you were capable of putting 2 and 2 together, you'd see that its only balanced that there exist an infantry squad capable of beating IR obers, unless you want to apply favoritism here and see nothing wrong with them being IWIN button vs any other infantry squad in game when you can put them in cover.

So in short:
Very strong allied infantry wins vs very strong axis infantry, therefore allied infantry OP?
...

Learn to read this is not what I have described.

Learn to read this is not what I have described.

You fully positive about that?

After the latest patch shock troops over perform and that can be seen by the fact that they can walk across open field against one the deadliest infatry axis has to offer the ST44 obers and win every single time.

Because that reads exactly like what I've described.