Two changes that would dramatically improve the early game.

1. Switch oorah with PPSH. Oorah is now doctrinal, PPSH is not. When PPSH is fired while standing it takes the shorter bursts that they currently do, however if you are using HTD with PPSH then they will take more sustained bursts similar to BARs in vcoh. This would make actually make conscripts a viable infantry killing machine, but flanking would require better timing and positioning since you won't always have access to oorah.

2. Reduce the burn radius and burn duration of molotov. Now most of its damage is done on contact with a very light burn over time. Now it functions more like a traditional grenade with a chance of shock value rather than just area denial. Also now you can dodge and re-enter cover/buildings since the burn duration would be very short.

*And yes MG42 needs to be buffed back to its non useless state, and now we have a early game that somewhat resembles vcoh.

basilone this is coh2 not vcoh...a complete different game imo

yeah sure. Return Mg42 as it was before, i missing instant pin and those times when 2 mg42 were totally unflankble.

3) CP1 Assault Grenadiers.

3. Rename them Grenadiers?

3) CP1 Assault Grenadiers.

I kind of agree with this. I can see how Relic thought they could balance those guys with making them useless vs. infantry in buildings and having no AT capabilities. Problems follow in team games and open maps though.

Just imagine the butthurt crying from all the German fanboys if they made Shocktroopers available from the start.

So Assgrens at T0/CP0 are a problem, but PPSH Cons at T0/CP0, wouldnt be?

So Assgrens at T0/CP0 are a problem, but PPSH Cons at T0/CP0, wouldnt be?

Nullist, champion of the Axis to the rescue! That comparison is completely flawed, but I've come to expect nothing less. Did you forget the fact that Conscripts get 2 PPSH for 20 muni, instead of 5 for zero muni? Or do you just omit info like that when its not convenient for you to mention it?

Ya that would be op. Ppsh cons combined with molotoves are hard enough to deal with even for lmg grens later in the game when they come out now, unupgraded grens would shredded. Sure your trying to balance that by making the mg good again but that just forces Germans to build at least one mg every game, which will make the meta kinda boring.

I think a fair compromise would be to increase the revised molotov to 25muni, and the PPSH upgrade is only available once T1 or T2 has been constructed. Cons are the core Soviet infantry, they shouldn't rely on a specific doctrine to be viable as anti infantry units. But I can see how a immediate PPSH upgrade could be a problem.

I think a fair compromise would be to increase the revised molotov to 25muni, and the PPSH upgrade is only available once T1 or T2 has been constructed. Cons are the core Soviet infantry, they shouldn't rely on a specific doctrine to be viable as anti infantry units. But I can see how a immediate PPSH upgrade could be a problem.

Nice backpedalling.

If youd have checked the numbers, Assgren and PPSH dps are actually very similar.
Assgrens: 28.205/15.39/2.58
PPSHCons: 23.792/13.954/4.116

Assgrens cost 320, so you pay the equivalent Muni in a MP conversion, and each reinforce costs more.

On the actual topic of Assgrens though, they have a 5th man with 1.5 armor, which I do perceive as a problem.
(But that doesnt affect their direct DPS, just survival, again, as offset by higher reinforce cost)

Basically your suggestion as it stood would mean non-doctrinal Assgrens, for Sov.
Imagine what that would do to early game, in almost every matchup.

Now that youve revised it with tier requirement, its more reasonable.

I dont agree that Sov should be able to rely on Cons for LMG equivalency AI.
That is why the Penals are there.

I loved vcoh, loved the meta, loved the game. However, I think turning the game to vcoh mechanics is exactly what the devs are trying to avoid. I think the game could eventually be pretty interesting without having global upgrades ( I miss the BARS).

Most of the issues stem from the timings that the soviet "elite infantry" aka "hard hitters" come out. I think the game is designed to eventually phase out the conscripts as much as you can and go for guards / shocks / penals. the problem with this is its a game about unit preservation, and there is an upkeep cost for keeping these conscripts around. Eventually, as the game goes on, they become huge manpower sinks. They deal almost no damage and just usually become your capping force. Also it seems odd to me that a unit that is supposed to be cannon fodder costs similarly to the opposing enemies main frontline unit. Yea, there are 2 more models per squad, but they aren't "meant to scale lategame" or so I've read. A smart german player will just spam grens and lmgs and move to your cutoff and sit there, and as long as he isn't braindead he will dodge your molotovs, and just shoot the shit out of all your conscripts. I guess my problem right now is the meta really needs some tweaks because I feel like playing germans there is no reason to not go gren, gren, gren, gren, gren lmg's > fHT or panzer IV. Gah, the meta is frustrating me just thinking about it haha there's so much I left out too like trying to second guess the german tech that will soon be assaulting you.

Its not like Ost has a lot of options except for Gren spam, in order to maintain capping potential.

Pios? Nope.
PGrens? Thats T2.

Ost dont have a baseline T1 specialised AI infantry unit, Sov do.
The Penals.

Thats why they need the LMG upgrade in order to maintain their only baseline units efficacy in AI.

People keep trying to redirect AI onto Cons, when Penals already exist on the roster.
Penals are the solution to Sov AI, not Cons.

That might be the intended design, but I have yet to see anyone use penals effectively in a competitive 1v1.

I like molotovs as area denial rather than just something that blows stuff up if you don't dodge it, besides Guards and shock troops (and penals but who cares) all have that.

Nice backpedalling.

If youd have checked the numbers, Assgren and PPSH dps are actually very similar.
Assgrens: 28.205/15.39/2.58
PPSHCons: 23.792/13.954/4.116

Assgrens cost 320, so you pay the equivalent Muni in a MP conversion, and each reinforce costs more.

On the actual topic of Assgrens though, they have a 5th man with 1.5 armor, which I do perceive as a problem.
(But that doesnt affect their direct DPS, just survival, again, as offset by higher reinforce cost)

Basically your suggestion as it stood would mean non-doctrinal Assgrens, for Sov.
Imagine what that would do to early game, in almost every matchup.

Now that youve revised it with tier requirement, its more reasonable.

I dont agree that Sov should be able to rely on Cons for LMG equivalency AI.
That is why the Penals are there.

You might want to re-read because I never back peddled on anything, I just added something to it. Secondly that was in response to Con, because I don't negotiate balance with people that don't actually play the game. Also I remember Pqumsieh saying on one of their patch preview broadcasts that their goal for balance in this game is that no strategy should be easier to execute than it is to beat. That means you shouldn't be forced in to using combined arms to beat someone else that is spamming one unit, at least not a basic T0/T1 unit.

And even though they do good damage, Penals are not a good early game 1v1 unit right now. The T1 takes far too long to construct and 360mp is too expensive. Even if the cost/dps ratio between Penals and Grens right now is very similar, Penals would still have a very hard time flanking MGs with such a limited number of units on the field. By the time a 3rd Penal hit there could already be 3 Grens and a MG42 on the field.

I do think molotves could use a change. Though I like them as area denial, but they could be more consistent in their damage. Sometimes they can do almost no damage to a squad and other times they will practically insta gib almost full health four man squads.

It isn't the same as rifle or other nades where you just want to not have your sqaud bunch up if they do take a hit, it is really annoying to lose a sqaud because you just missed moving it before the throw because you where busy microing elsewhere only to have a full health squad get wiped just as you go there to micro while other times it might just kill one guy.

Also the input lag that happens after a Molotov is thrown, units take like forever to move out of them even if you spam click them to leave.

If ppsh's where added to cons after t1 or t2 I would want Germans to have cheaper, more eaisly placed, ai mines. The thing is though that if you go t1 or t2 you really don't need ppsh's becuase you have ai options available to you (and yes penals need to be buffed in some way).

And if you get t1 or t2 after four cons or more you will have ppsh's only a few minutes later already so that only pushes the timing up. This will force more lmgs on grens then now, to match that. Eventually people will figure out which side has the better outcome from that, probably soviets with the much cheaper ppshs, and that muni will need to be spent in other ways for germans. All this will do is switch lmg spam to ppsh spam, add in the cheap mines form soviets and you will have big problems.

Also side note, having used g43's lately I think the rifle nade sound some how ended up on them they are constantly making the noise even when they don't fire a rifle nade.

Its not like Ost has a lot of options except for Gren spam, in order to maintain capping potential.

Pios? Nope.
PGrens? Thats T2.

Ost dont have a baseline T1 specialised AI infantry unit, Sov do.
The Penals.

Thats why they need the LMG upgrade in order to maintain their only baseline units efficacy in AI.

People keep trying to redirect AI onto Cons, when Penals already exist on the roster.
Penals are the solution to Sov AI, not Cons.

No one uses T1,and even if they do,they don't use Penals...

No one uses T1,and even if they do,they don't use Penals...

Im using them in every game. Im rank 30 as soviet.

http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198017442043

Even in replays you can to find same my replays versus decent german which are about rank 27. And penals alltime did the most damage to german infantry.Penals with 2-3 vet are deadly.

I think give the cons a single or twin DP-28 upgrade for 30~60 munition after player build T1 or T2 is also a option

Ya that would be op. Ppsh cons combined with molotoves are hard enough to deal with even for lmg grens later in the game when they come out now, unupgraded grens would shredded. Sure your trying to balance that by making the mg good again but that just forces Germans to build at least one mg every game, which will make the meta kinda boring.

buying 1 mg makes the meta boring?