Panzerfusiliers Need Adjustments

Yeah I got that now, too. Have you also compared them without cover/yellow cover? From what I know cover tends to be more random due to model drops, which should favor larger squads.

Conscripts have about 10% more effective health than Füsiliere. The site that you use says that Füsiliere always have higher DPS than Conscripts, and at most ranges way more than 10% (5m is the point where they break even in that regard). This of course does not account for DPS loss in model drops, so Conscripts are favored at 5m. At higher distances, Füsiliere should win.
Also I think that the Sturmpionier compensates quite a lot.

I'm not saying that Füsiliere are worth 280 MP for their vanilla power, but they're worth it for their scaling.

actually u can see in the mid fight image cons got a model sniped both times

actually they have comparable vet to cons with less RA and more accuracy

they are still overprice even with the upgrade, that's the difference

yea no they perform very well even without upgrades u can see by their elite weapons and numbers (if think obers are the only unit with the power fully gated behind upgrade as the developer team wanted them, old obers came with lmg alredy there)


this doesn't excuse their worse performance AND higher cost , 1 of them would be fine but both just make the unit useless

PFs are not overpriced with the upgrade, that is just your opinion. You are worried about initial cost of PFs while completely ignoring a fact that they reinforce for only 25 MP. Other mainlines of PF caliber reinforce for 27-30 MP.

If you'd seriously pay for the Obers and then use them without an upgrade with the 40 MP reinforcement cost you are delusional. This is a definition of cost ineffective considering how late you acquire them, so a weapon upgrade is a must for Obers. They do very well with either MG34 or IR STG but not without them.

then how much do u value the extra men and sight ? cause cons are 50 mun and they give and increase in dps ,vet and reinforce other than the extra men are u saying the increase in dps vet and reinforce only value 0 and the extra men 50 mun ?

This is a stupid question as the balance is asymmetrical and the units aren't the same between different factions so it's not a direct comparison. Different factions have different MU sinks. You also forgot to take into account how late the Con upgrade comes and that G43 increase PFs' DPS significantly too. Conscripts needed an upgrade more than any other unit to remain relevant in the lategame.

lol p fusi have the same vet as penal, they scale about the same as rifle

btw how good are fusy late game ? they are about penal lvl tho, thye have just alittle edge thanks to the g 43s cause they alredy have worse rifle and u even pay more mp (280 mp +25 of the extra men)

Don't forget the tech cost for penals. The tech time and penal build time play big role in the field presence of SOV army and the early game map control. It's a disadvantage that you may not fully take into account.

actually u can see in the mid fight image cons got a model sniped both times

I can see that a less than 50% health squad has 67% of his models.
How often did you run the test? Do you have data on that?
You did not adress the stats that I argumented with from the site that you are using as well for your arguments. What do you say about this?

I can also see in the picture that an about 50% (maybe slightly more) Füsilier squad has 3 models left. So not much damage spread on that.

btw i like to play this card now that i did some testing

>why do cons beat pfusi even tho they cost more to reinforce and base ?

>why do cons have base snad bag and RA at vet 1 which they can achive during the fight ?

>pfusi will always bleed vs cons as they cost more to reinforce



for reference https://www.coh2.org/topic/94987/riflemen-need-a-buff-or-volks-need-a-nerf/page/3

I can see that a less than 50% health squad has 67% of his models.
How often did you run the test? Do you have data on that?
You did not adress the stats that I argumented with from the site that you are using as well for your arguments. What do you say about this?

that u did not account the fact that cons have 1 more man than fusi, the extra men give them and edge in the fight thanks to more dps and 80 more hp, making them win at mid and close range and almost draw at long range

btw i like to play this card now that i did some testing

>why do cons beat pfusi even tho they cost more to reinforce and base ?

>why do cons have base snad bag and RA at vet 1 which they can achive during the fight ?

Cons have more or less 70% of far PF DPS. If your PFs lose to cons you are taking an engagement at a wrong distance or with insufficient cover. You can keep Sturms next to your PFs if you are afraid of Cons charging you.

Cons will get reduced RA at vet 1 because their scaling is being made more linear, just like PGrens' vet bonuses were adjusted last patch. The vet 1 RA bonus for Cons will just bring them to starting RA of many mainlines. Volks get RA reduction at vet 1 too and they too have sandbags and don't have to pay a fortune for basic tools like snare. Why are you so fixated about this topic?

that u did not account the fact that cons have 1 more man than fusi, the extra men give them and edge in the fight thanks to more dps and 80 more hp, making them win at mid and close range and almost draw at long range

I adressed all of this already.
Cons have effectively only 40 HP more due to higher RA, which is 10% more than the Füsiliere.
At range 5, Füsiliere have 10% more damage than Cons, at ALL above ranges, Füsiliere have more than 10% more DPS. I also already adressed the fact that Conscripts are favored due to their 6th man and the less DPS loss with model drop. But please don't tell me that you truly believe that this can compensate the the DPS difference up to range 35.

And again: How often did you run the test? Did you also run it without cover? Do you have data on that and would you share it with us?

Cons have more or less 60% of far PF DPS. If your PFs lose to cons you are taking an engagement at a wrong distance or with insufficient cover. You can keep Sturms next to your PFs if you are afraid of Cons charging you.

Cons will get reduced RA at vet 1 because their scaling is being made more linear, just like PGrens' vet bonuses were adjusted last patch. The vet 1 RA bonus for Cons will just bring them to starting RA of many mainlines. Volks get RA reduction at vet 1 too and they too have sandbags and don't have to pay a fortune for basic tools like snare. Why are you so fixated about this topic?

i did test and as u can see mid and close range are won by cons and long range is barely won by pfusi they may have less far dps but 1 more man means 80 more hp and another rifle

cause that's the reason why people wanted to nerf volks and buff rifle, this is the same situation but roles are reversed, guess what people say it's fine cause star>cross

cause that's the reason why people wanted to nerf volks and buff rifle, this is the same situation but roles are reversed, guess what people say it's fine cause star>cross

Why do you repeatedly take what other people say, and then hold different people who didn't say it accountable for those other people's comments? Totally ridiculous

I adressed all of this already.
Cons have effectively only 40 HP more due to higher RA, which is 10% more than the Füsiliere.
At range 5, Füsiliere have 10% more damage than Cons, at ALL above ranges, Füsiliere have more than 10% more DPS. I also already adressed the fact that Conscripts are favored due to their 6th man and the less DPS loss with model drop. But please don't tell me that you truly believe that this can compensate the the DPS difference up to range 35.

And again: How often did you run the test? Did you also run it without cover? Do you have data on that and would you share it with us?

have run it without cover but didn't test much

https://imgur.com/a/4kLyIGz

as test are generally indicative stats already prove that they will lose close and mid as they have similar dps 13,2 vs 13, 8 at 16 range but one has 80 more hp (and more RA but even then the dps difference is not enough to overcome the hp barrier as shown in the test)

Why do you repeatedly take what other people say, and then hold different people who didn't say it accountable for those other people's comments? Totally ridiculous

i did not make names or talking to someone specific, did u fell personally involved ?

cause that's the reason why people wanted to nerf volks and buff rifle, this is the same situation but roles are reversed, guess what people say it's fine cause star>cross

No it's not. The problem with that was that OKW had extreme early game pressure also due to Sturmpioniere and that the more expensive squad needs to close in to a unit that can build green cover. Another point is that Volks got StGs earlier than Rilfes get BARs unless you delay tech.

Here, the more expensive squad does not need to close in, Instead, the cheaper squad needs to close in to a squad that can not build cover. The only thing that is the same is that the cheaper squad is better off slugging it out long range. While they might lose, they enable other squads to cap. Also they don't run into sturmpios. But Cons don't get a power spike and Füsilier upgrading does not delay tech

i did not make names or talking to someone specific, did u fell personally involved ?

So then you're just making stuff up again?

No i didn't. I'm pointing out that "people said this" isn't a valid argument in favor of literally anything....

Yes, I see that point, but I think their overall performance is very good. So in my opinion reducing the MP cost can only work if they get nerfed for late game. But then you could basically buy just Volks.
And as I said, of all the factions, OKW can take the early game blow due to their Sturmpioniere.

Also I thought that vetted+upgraded (I know, 30 mun difference) Panzerfusiliere are better than Volksgrenadiere? This was basically the whole point of the redesign, wasn't it?

Actually OKW is the faction that can NOT tolerate early losses because of their mid game weaknesses. Yes the sturmpioneer is strong but by any mistakes early with sturmpioneer you are screwed. (Sidenote : Maxim spam completely shut down OKW)

i did test and as u can see mid and close range are won by cons and long range is barely won by pfusi they may have less far dps but 1 more man means 80 more hp and another rifle

Regular pathfinders lose to pioneers at close range. 280 MP vs 200 MP. This is normal and nobody cares because fighting with pathfinders in CQC is just misusing the unit. Pre-upgrade PFs are meant to be used at long ranges, that's even stated in the ingame description of the unit if I remember correctly.

Actually OKW is the faction that can NOT tolerate early losses because of their mid game weaknesses. Yes the sturmpioneer is strong but by any mistakes early with sturmpioneer you are screwed. (Sidenote : Maxim spam completely shut down OKW)

I don't understand this "midgame weakness" of OKW, they have P2 and Puma which are excellent vehicles and also rocket arty in the same building which is good vs teamweapons like maxim. STGs being relatively cheap upgrade with good moving DPS and good midrange damage also gives OKW a boost in the midgame. ...or are we talking about early lategame here? Can you specify the mode and timeframe?

Yes the sturmpioneer is strong but by any mistakes early with sturmpioneer you are screwed.

Any mistake against OKW and you are screwed too. This works both ways. They can turn your teamweapons into their fuel in seconds if you mess up or get flanked by Sturms. Game punishes bad plays and rewards good ones, just as it should be.

Regular pathfinders lose to pioneers at close range. 280 MP vs 200 MP. This is normal and nobody cares because fighting with pathfinders in CQC is just misusing the unit. Pre-upgrade PFs are meant to be used at long ranges, that's even stated in the ingame description of the unit if I remember correctly.

The thing is PFusi lose every single engagement except for cons at long range.

No it's not. The problem with that was that OKW had extreme early game pressure also due to Sturmpioniere and that the more expensive squad needs to close in to a unit that can build green cover. Another point is that Volks got StGs earlier than Rilfes get BARs unless you delay tech.

Here, the more expensive squad does not need to close in, Instead, the cheaper squad needs to close in to a squad that can not build cover. The only thing that is the same is that the cheaper squad is better off slugging it out long range. While they might lose, they enable other squads to cap. Also they don't run into sturmpios. But Cons don't get a power spike and Füsilier upgrading does not delay tech

well fusi are doc unit tho

Regular pathfinders lose to pioneers at close range. 280 MP vs 200 MP. This is normal and nobody cares because fighting with pathfinders in CQC is just misusing the unit. Pre-upgrade PFs are meant to be used at long ranges, that's even stated in the ingame description of the unit if I remember correctly.

actually they don't, they even veted somehow


but leaving that aside pathfinder have a very different role and other utility

and as u can see from the test at long range they barely win and still lose at close and mid range, if u don0't want to make them cheaper than increase the dps at long range

actually they don't, they even veted somehow


but leaving that aside pathfinder have a very different role and other utility

and as u can see from the test at long range they barely win and still lose at close and mid range, if u don0't want to make them cheaper than increase the dps at long range

I don't know how you conducted the test but it was not close range. I performed the regular pathfinders vs pioneers close range test and received the following: all pathfinders died, pioneers suffered ~30% hp damage, test distance was ~7. I used the range map and set the units in line with sandbags that I later removed - no cover.

https://imgbbb.com/image/bIWcp