Panzerfusiliers Need Adjustments

*In the beginning of the game

They scale better. You telling me that a 30 Muni difference in upgrade cost is all that's needed to account for how good Fusis are late game?

Imo that's complete bs

lol p fusi have the same vet as penal, they scale about the same as rifle

btw how good are fusy late game ? they are about penal lvl tho, thye have just alittle edge thanks to the g 43s cause they alredy have worse rifle and u even pay more mp (280 mp +25 of the extra men)

lol p fusi have the same vet as penal, they scale about the same as rifle

And on a 5 vet scale...

lol p fusi have the same vet as penal, they scale about the same as rifle

For the love of God. I'm talking about pfussies vs volks. That literally what you just asked me

You: why should they be worse than volks and cost more
Me: they scale better than volks
You: they scale as well as penals and Rifleman

Uhh okay?

Can you try making an ounce of sense? Please?

No you don't. You pay that much to unlock mechanised tech AND fusilier upgrades
You pay 300mp and 30 fuel for JUST Rifleman upgrades. Nothing else

Yet you start with less fuel on OKW etc. this fight can rage on indefinently. So lets just focus on the topic. IMO they must be at volks level for 280 MP. Seriously a squad that get sprint compared to self heal on vet is no good when compared. Add in the STG upgrade being toooooo cost efficient compared to G43 upgrade.

My suggestion is : Reduce Pfusi cost to 260mp add 20MP cost to G43 upgrade.

My suggestion is : Reduce Pfusi cost to 260mp add 20MP cost to G43 upgrade.

I don't hate it, but i don't think there's any precedent for something like this. Doesn't mean it can't happen

it's u who said to compare them to those units, then u backpadle when i do ?

im not complaining about the g 43 upgrade im complaining about the base mp cost of the unit, why it's the only unit that needs to pay for the extra men twice (in the base cost and the upgrade)?

and no compared to previous PF they have 1 less men

and so what? those unit are priced fairly and it's not like fusi wins at all range, they have strictly worse dps than volks at mid and close range

You have clearly not understood my post then, I don't backpedal from it. Obers are overpriced unless you buy them an upgrade, just like PFs, but you have freedom to build PFs whenever you want unlike Obers. If you decide to implement PFs in your build too early and in masses, you are going to suffer from your build order decisions. Please, read again:

If you take a look at Obersoldaten, Paratroopers, Guards and Rangers, all these units perform rather poorly for their cost if you don't buy them any upgrades. They excell once their special weapons are handed to them. Powerful units like these can shift balance if upgraded early, so most of these units are locked behind CP or tech. PFs used to be locked behind CP as well, however a change was implemented that allowed players to field these units early so they could improve the variety and army composition and also vet early on. It was a good change. The source of the cost-performance issue you see is driven by locked-behind-tech expensive upgrade with which the unit is intended to be used.

I also explained why I think the PFs aren't straight up equal or superior to Volks in every situation as you want them to be.

For the love of God. I'm talking about pfussies vs volks. That literally what you just asked me

You: why should they be worse than volks and cost more
Me: they scale better than volks
You: they scale as well as penals and Rifleman

Uhh okay?

Can you try making an ounce of sense? Please?

do u actually think before u write ?

if they have worse base dps and betters scaling then they equalize (2 x 4 = 4 x 2), and if u go check the dps chart u actually see pf are still worse than volks at mid and close range without upgrades

and before u say" but then with upgrade they are better" do the upgrade cost 60 munition ?

You have clearly not understood my post then, I don't backpedal from it. Obers are overpriced unless you buy them an upgrade, just like PFs, but you have freedom to build PFs whenever you want unlike Obers. If you decide to implement PFs in your build too early and in masses, you are going to suffer from your build order decisions. Please, read again:

If you take a look at Obersoldaten, Paratroopers, Guards and Rangers, all these units perform rather poorly for their cost if you don't buy them any upgrades. They excell once their special weapons are handed to them. Powerful units like these can shift balance if upgraded early, so most of these units are locked behind CP or tech. PFs used to be locked behind CP as well, however a change was implemented that allowed players to field these units early so they could improve the variety and army composition and also vet early on. It was a good change. The source of the cost-performance issue you see is driven by locked-behind-tech expensive upgrade with which the unit is intended to be used.

I also explained why I think the PFs aren't straight up equal or superior to Volks in every situation as you want them to be.

they are still overprice even with the upgrade, that's the difference

yea no they perform very well even without upgrades u can see by their elite weapons and numbers (if think obers are the only unit with the power fully gated behind upgrade as the developer team wanted them, old obers came with lmg alredy there)


this doesn't excuse their worse performance AND higher cost , 1 of them would be fine but both just make the unit useless

do u actually think before u write ?

if they have worse base dps and betters scaling then they equalize (2 x 4 = 4 x 2), and if u go check the dps chart u actually see pf are still worse than volks at mid and close range without upgrades

and before u say" but then with upgrade they are better" do the upgrade cost 60 munition ?

I already covered all of this. I'm aware of their stats and upgrade cost.

They scale better. Do you believe that just a difference of 30 Muni in upgrade cost is enough to account for how much better they are by the end of the game?

Cause I don't. They should also cost a little more by default as well

I already covered all of this. I'm aware of their stats and upgrade cost.

They scale better. Do you believe that just a difference of 30 Muni in upgrade cost is enough to account for how much better they are by the end of the game?

Cause I don't. They should also cost a little more by default

yes i do believe cause if for 1 time if u actually go and check the dps stg are pretty similar to g43s, and they will lose at mid range thanks to volks base superior dps

yes i do believe cause if for 1 time if u actually go and check the dps stg are pretty similar to g43s, and they will lose at mid range thanks to volks base superior dps

Yeah too bad that upgrade doesn't give them an extra man and doesn't buff their sight or anything like that. Its a real shame it only gives them silly g43s...

I'm aware of the dps numbers. Apparently it's the only thing you care about...

Yeah too bad that upgrade doesn't give them an extra man and doesn't buff their sight or anything like that. Its a real shame it only gives them silly g43s...

I'm aware of the dps numbers. Apparently it's the only thing you care about...

then how much do u value the extra men and sight ? cause cons are 50 mun and they give and increase in dps ,vet and reinforce other than the extra men are u saying the increase in dps vet and reinforce only value 0 and the extra men 50 mun ?

u forgot that p fusi are 5 men not 6, the 6th comes only with upgrade

and I did I mean it's 90 munitions for the upgrage i don't know where u get the 45 muni cost

I thought you compared all upgraded variants? Would be fair as this would compare units at their true potential. They're also not that bad that they would completely hamper your early game, far from Conscript level. OKW can deal with a slower early game since Sturmpioniere can compensate that. Panzerfusiliere are meant to be upgraded, so I think calculating with the complete costs seems fine. Otherwise you could also say that Obersoldaten are total shit for their price and reinforcement costs. They're also meant to be upgraded, nobody buys them for their vanilla firepower.

I forgot to type the word "more", so the Füsilier upgrade costs 45 mun more than the Grenadier G43 upgrade. So compared to them you pay 40 MP and 45 mun more for a higher health pool, a bit utility, better survivability and DPS retention. I see why you might think that there should be adjustments because especially the upgrade is very expensive. But all in all, I think Panzerfusiliere are a good trade off. Less early game firepower for very good late game scaling and early safety against vehicles and a utility. To me they seemed fine both as OKW and as Allies, I even had the feeling that they were able to trade with 5 man Tommies, but that's just personal experience, no data on that.

Also I don't know about their vet boni by heart compared to other mainline infantry.

then how much do u value the extra men and sight ? cause cons are 50 mun and they give and increase in dps ,vet and reinforce other than the extra men

And it's t3. And it costs 100mp and 25 fu just to unlock it. Check patch notes lately?

Oh and both side techs

But the thing is early power means fuel control thus early LV lead etc. The main problem of the PF is they can be build less thus less map control on top of that they are worse than volks which makes the situation even worse. If you try to replace them later on as your mainline, already vetted volks will still outperform them. The issue that needs to be adressed is their initial MP cost since you already trade your early power but you get further punished by the manpower IMO.

But the thing is early power means fuel control thus early LV lead etc. The main problem of the PF is they can be build less thus less map control on top of that they are worse than volks which makes the situation even worse. If you try to replace them later on as your mainline, already vetted volks will still outperform them. The issue that needs to be adressed is their initial MP cost since you already trade your early power but you get further punished by the manpower IMO.

Yes, I see that point, but I think their overall performance is very good. So in my opinion reducing the MP cost can only work if they get nerfed for late game. But then you could basically buy just Volks.
And as I said, of all the factions, OKW can take the early game blow due to their Sturmpioniere.

Also I thought that vetted+upgraded (I know, 30 mun difference) Panzerfusiliere are better than Volksgrenadiere? This was basically the whole point of the redesign, wasn't it?

I thought you compared all upgraded variants? Would be fair as this would compare units at their true potential. They're also not that bad that they would completely hamper your early game, far from Conscript level. OKW can deal with a slower early game since Sturmpioniere can compensate that. Panzerfusiliere are meant to be upgraded, so I think calculating with the complete costs seems fine. Otherwise you could also say that Obersoldaten are total shit for their price and reinforcement costs. They're also meant to be upgraded, nobody buys them for their vanilla firepower.

I forgot to type the word "more", so the Füsilier upgrade costs 45 mun more than the Grenadier G43 upgrade. So compared to them you pay 40 MP and 45 mun more for a higher health pool, a bit utility, better survivability and DPS retention. I see why you might think that there should be adjustments because especially the upgrade is very expensive. But all in all, I think Panzerfusiliere are a good trade off. Less early game firepower for very good late game scaling and early safety against vehicles and a utility. To me they seemed fine both as OKW and as Allies, I even had the feeling that they were able to trade with 5 man Tommies, but that's just personal experience, no data on that.

Also I don't know about their vet boni by heart compared to other mainline infantry.

no i was comparing base pfusi and base rifle and volks

u sure ? Cause they barely win at long range and lose at mid and close range to cons at base and at long range with the upgrade they can still trade

https://imgur.com/a/tO7E0oW



truly worth their 280 mp price "hhuhhu rifle are up they draw at long range vs a unit that cost 30 less mp" "it's perfectly fine for cons to beat pfusi at mid and close rnage evn tho they cost 40 more mp"

And it's t3. And it costs 100mp and 25 fu just to unlock it. Check patch notes lately?

Oh and both side techs

im talking about current patch

im talking about current patch

I doubt that since you literally just mentioned the mod team saying they are gonna change fussies in the next patch. But I'll humor you

Okay, then the upgrade still requires t4. Let's lower fussies cost, lock upgrades behind flak hq

That makes them even worse than now. Happy?

no i was comparing base pfusi and base rifle and volks

u sure ? Cause they barely win at long range and lose at mid and close range to cons at base and at long range with the upgrade they can still trade

https://imgur.com/a/tO7E0oW



truly worth their 280 mp price

Yeah I got that now, too. Have you also compared them without cover/yellow cover? From what I know cover tends to be more random due to model drops, which should favor larger squads.

Conscripts have about 10% more effective health than Füsiliere. The site that you use says that Füsiliere always have higher DPS than Conscripts, and at most ranges way more than 10% (5m is the point where they break even in that regard). This of course does not account for DPS loss in model drops, so Conscripts are favored at 5m. At higher distances, Füsiliere should win.
Also I think that the Sturmpionier compensates quite a lot.

I'm not saying that Füsiliere are worth 280 MP for their vanilla power, but they're worth it for their scaling.