Thoughts on OKWs Flak Half Track

uhm..whot? USF HT even suppress when moving...so u can kit any squad easily..while the OKW HT need luck to supress and must move (no more shooting) when a squad comes to near...USF ht only need move and has enough distance to suppress and kitting.

on top of this..USF is much more consistent and win mostly all fights until mediums hit the field. (even vs puma (often seen in high rank tournament games)) while the OKW ht is helpless vs any stuart, t70, AEC etc

All true indeed.

USF AA is definitely much more consistent and efficient while OKW FHT simply isnt.

All true indeed.

USF AA is definitely much more consistent and efficient while OKW FHT simply isnt.

Its also more expensive and arrives later.
Yes, more expensive units that arrive later will perform better then cheaper units that arrive earlier if they have the same role.
You've hardly discovered amerika here.

Its also more expensive and arrives later.
Yes, more expensive units that arrive later will perform better then cheaper units that arrive earlier if they have the same role.
You've hardly discovered amerika here.

It is the same timing. No different.

While USF has to tech for getting it but OKW has to tech for medics, still would cost around the same price. Timing is not that much different. Takes just as long (similarly but not that much a difference in contrast) for OKW also.

If you say later, it is not even 5 min. It is similar timing.

I played enough to know that USF AA comes definitely earlier than Luchs.

Why and it is simple?
Show Spoiler


Later than FHT, I dont think so.

Its also more expensive and arrives later.
Yes, more expensive units that arrive later will perform better then cheaper units that arrive earlier if they have the same role.
You've hardly discovered amerika here.

Then explain bofors. It comes MUCH earlier, is MUCH more powerful to lock down areas and is even MUCH cheaper.

It is the same timing. No different.

While USF has to tech for getting it but OKW has to tech for medics, still would cost around the same price. Timing is not that much different. Takes just as long (similarly but not that much a difference in contrast) for OKW also.

If you say later, it is not even 5 min. It is similar timing.

I played enough to know that USF AA comes definitely earlier than Luchs.


Later than FHT, I dont think so.

Medics are optional side tech(as mandatory as they are, they don't need to be firs thing made at BGHQ) and are not required to unlock FHT, so that argument is void.

And timing is significantly different, it can be up to 2 minute difference in 1v1 and 2v2 which is massive that early into the game.

Why do you think Luchs has had its build time increased massively couple of patches ago? Because it arrived too fast out of mechanized and you want it to be out even faster - that equals to BFHQ having increased cost to match mechanized, which does the exact opposite of what you're aiming for, it nerfs BGHQ.

Do you now see why luchs will never leave mechanized?

Medics are optional side tech(as mandatory as they are, they don't need to be firs thing made at BGHQ) and are not required to unlock FHT, so that argument is void.

And timing is significantly different, it can be up to 2 minute difference in 1v1 and 2v2 which is massive that early into the game.

Why do you think Luchs has had its build time increased massively couple of patches ago? Because it arrived too fast out of mechanized and you want it to be out even faster - that equals to BFHQ having increased cost to match mechanized, which does the exact opposite of what you're aiming for, it nerfs BGHQ.

Do you now see why luchs will never leave mechanized?

For just that claimed difference of 2 mins.

Really is just a terrible balancing decision for USF AA being significantly better in contrast than FHT. Just a bigger difference in contrast to its performance than in the difference of its (timing) arrival.

In fact USF AA arrival can be faster if you use the Captain to speed up the process.


Considering FHT is more vulnerable to many more situations and the fact that its output is just simply lacking. Does not quite make a point as to where it currently stands.

Really a poor judgement to think that it is supposed that much better which is somehow approved.

No logic really behind this evaluation.

Oh, do not leave out this point that you left out. Cuz it had to do with "arrival", lol.

Show Spoiler
https://www.coh2.org/topic/96376/thoughts-on-okws-flak-half-track/post/769860

FHT needs changes dont you think?


There is so many reasons currently why it should be improved or buffed to its former state (before the patch they nerfed this unit completely) or even better than it used to be.

What do you think?



My reasons:

1./ Not viable and potent enough to be used in 1v1. Raketenwerfer is a factor in making this unit suriviable. FHT as a stand alone unit, it does not do enough (DPS) damage output thus it is not efficient enough.

2./ It is currently open to many exposures. T70, Stuart, AEC, there is really no way make it survive at all when they are present. Mostly due to the lacking AT support but on top, FHT cant deal with lights as described. It is not good its damage output another thing

3./ Description states, good against infantry. For 55 fuel, it does not give that result as in comparison to Luchs for 60 fuel. The performance gap difference is huge in the Anti personel (AI) departement which FHT utterly lacks

4./ Cant surpress well enough even whilst being stationary. USF AA can do so on the move at a far better surpressing rate. Even more so for USF AA when stationary.

5./ Cant deal with infantry when on the retreat. Misses too much and reloads pretty too frequently. Accuracy (& scatter contribution to its accuracy performance) and reload is just terrible. Reload takes a good long 4-5 seconds. Geez that is terrible

6./ Battlegroup (Med base) does not have much to offer. Thus FHT should be buffed more, in my opinion.

7./ Can not even be used competitively as in comparison to its previous version (when it was stronger, before it was even nerfed).

8./ Of all units in game in terms of vehicles. It is the only that has to set up before an output can be done. Yet, in its current state, it is just no use since it provides no real effect/purpose.

9./ For 55 fuel, both the USF AA and OKW Halftrack deserve some additional HP. So at least it can sustain a bit more than usual. Gives just a slight 40-50hp. Since they too vulnerable for that price. Maybe.

10./ Due to its lacking output/performance, OKW FHT can not even obtain veterancy even properly at an efficient rate. Takes long before even acquiring Vet 2.

11./ In its current state, price, efficiency, output and performance. It is simply frustrating to use. Not even worth the investment currently.

12./ DECEMBER 19th "COMMUNITY" UPDATE, did not improve the unit at all, in fact it was made worse unintentionally (since they attempting on improving but it was not taken in the right direction properly), though I do hope they can change and fix it. Fix it Devs please!
https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/67/coh-2-changelog/p5
comment number 140.

It says it is meant to improve veterancy but it evidently has a hard time doing that. Damage had been reduced significantly to 16 damage.

20 damage was absolutely fine, especially for unit that had to be stationary.

Surpression was halved, I mean ok but keep the damage then at 20. If not than increase the surpression.

Dont make both the surpression and damage both bad.

I would go for the damage output increase to 20 damage per shot since that would be definitely a far better improvement than going for surpression.

It would improve vet scaling better, better output and at least can fend off better lights. If only they improved damage also.

I know it has been a while back but I did not have the opportunity at the time to address these changes which I disapprove.

It is still not good.




To clarify what it needs to get better:


Bring back its damage from 16 to 20 damage instead.

Accuracy should be increased just by taking the Vet 2 accuracy bonus, applied to Vet 0 (default) instead.


It would help scale, vet, combat, and most importantly, increase its consistency and efficiency.

6./ Battlegroup (Med base) does not have much to offer. Thus FHT should be buffed more, in my opinion.

This doesn't make sense to me. However, this is a good reason to change/replace the IR Half-track instead.

This doesn't make sense to me. However, this is a good reason to change/replace the IR Half-track instead.

I mean in terms of AI support or even AT.

Mechanized has all that better covered by 3 times.

Luchs just great AI, far better than FHT.

AT which Med Battlegroup does not even have.

Indirect fire is a tie between the LEIG and Walking Stuka. Tough many argue Walking Stuka is the winner tough I myself believe its the LEIG. But not enough reason for going Med at all since its just not adaptive in comparison the Med base.

IRHT is just good in team games but it is not all that useful in other game modes otherwise.



That is what I mean.

Mechanized has all that better covered by 3 times.

Thanks for explaining.

Just keep in mind that the Schwerer Panzer HQ will become more important since that all tank call-ins require it. It is a trade-off to go for the Battlegroup HQ. Choosing Mechanized will delay your tanks quite a lot.

Thanks for explaining.

Just keep in mind that the Schwerer Panzer HQ will become more important since that all tank call-ins require it. It is a trade-off to go for the Battlegroup HQ. Choosing Mechanized will delay your tanks quite a lot.

Tough, also to keep in mind, that to give off the control (early and mid game) by not using the Mechanized which has the means to do so due to having proper units that Med does not have, it might just take away the opportunity to even use the PanzerHQ efficiently.

Another way of seeing this.

I appreciate your evaluation.

People think Flaktrack is poor because they keep pushing them too hard, I have been using them lately with great effect.

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  Faramir

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  A flaktrack to remember

  by: zerocoh map: Unknown

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  .:PSG:. RedxWings

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  Fun non meta match

  by: zerocoh map: Arnhem Checkpoint

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sure, they are very vulnerable vs their hard counters, but isn't it the point of HARD counters? the thing about about flaktracks is that the ally player ABSOLUTELY needs to counter it since it is a mobile 360 degree flak that also has smoke to escape. When well timed and well microed the flaktrack is absolute a nightmare to deal with.

now that the unit is going to be cheaper they will be way more viable in the very early and also on the very late game (yes LATE game when people tend to be pushing infantry move into enemy territory while also trying to not put their vehicles into harm).

OKWs Flak HT needs a Health buff in my opinion. It doesn't need a damage or reload speed because it should be mobile and versitile unit which goes from 1 side to another just to help the units out. It is in the battlegroup which is to assist units in the battle, therefore it shouldn't be a unit killer.
It's either giving it something like the USF M20 has to not get 2 shooted by the Panzerfaust, so it can sustaine at least 2 shoots from the AT gun and being able to still survive with the lowest HP possible .
In my opinion there are 2 options it should be balanced .

First is to give it 1 more shoot before being destroyed.
The second one is to get it's fuel cost lowered to 45 or even 40 not to be in a way of the T4.

The new patch will help with the HF being more build and letting the obers get out sooner and getting the elite units but still it will have a problem staying alive in the late game. Even if you managed to get it in the late game it will be less usefull then a 221 . It'll be sitting on one of the cutoffs and defending it's position and you would not be gaining much.
At the end of the day the AA HF won't even be a bait anymore due to the rekketen not being able to use ambush from vet 0.

OKWs Flak HT needs a Health buff in my opinion. It doesn't need a damage or reload speed because it should be mobile and versitile unit which goes from 1 side to another just to help the units out. It is in the battlegroup which is to assist units in the battle, therefore it shouldn't be a unit killer.
It's either giving it something like the USF M20 has to not get 2 shooted by the Panzerfaust, so it can sustaine at least 2 shoots from the AT gun and being able to still survive with the lowest HP possible .
In my opinion there are 2 options it should be balanced .

First is to give it 1 more shoot before being destroyed.
The second one is to get it's fuel cost lowered to 45 or even 40 not to be in a way of the T4.

The new patch will help with the HF being more build and letting the obers get out sooner and getting the elite units but still it will have a problem staying alive in the late game. Even if you managed to get it in the late game it will be less usefull then a 221 . It'll be sitting on one of the cutoffs and defending it's position and you would not be gaining much.

HP buff is probably a good idea. Buffing the offense is tough when it comes so early.

Cost is good for performance but as with all the OKW vehicles in mech and battlegroup that means they come even earlier. Locking it behind medics would be a neat way to delay the arrival but make it a more economical option.

And also battlegroup always has and always will be a weak tech choice when you only get 3 units and one of them is a non-combatant IR halftrack. If OKW had an extra choice this tech would see more play.

HP buff is probably a good idea. Buffing the offense is tough when it comes so early.

Cost is good for performance but as with all the OKW vehicles in mech and battlegroup that means they come even earlier. Locking it behind medics would be a neat way to delay the arrival but make it a more economical option.

And also battlegroup always has and always will be a weak tech choice when you only get 3 units and one of them is a non-combatant IR halftrack. If OKW had an extra choice this tech would see more play.

one of the options to generally buff the battlegroup would be getting the medics in the battlegroup not to cost fuel instead costing MP, it can be 50 MP more but again it will help with the AA HT.
The damage itself goes with the vet which is simply fine. if you would add up the damage at vet0 it would be too op.

Health buffs would be unfitting as every other nation has halftracks that all share the same health, the only exception is the USF M15 Flak HT with the 37mm main gun and the 2 .50 machine guns that gets a slight HP buff at vet3 and suddenly becomes very hard to kill, as you are forced to faust it or use a vehicle/tank and a good amount of time to shoot at it. I still believe, that a slight supression buff or the possibility to ignore terrain to supress more reliable would go a long way to perform well against infantry while staying vulnerable to at-guns or vehicles and not being too dominant and punishing early on before the vet2 boni kick in.

Health buffs would be unfitting as every other nation has halftracks that all share the same health, the only exception is the USF M15 Flak HT with the 37mm main gun and the 2 .50 machine guns that gets a slight HP buff at vet3 and suddenly becomes very hard to kill, as you are forced to faust it or use a vehicle/tank and a good amount of time to shoot at it. I still believe, that a slight supression buff or the possibility to ignore terrain to supress more reliable would go a long way to perform well against infantry while staying vulnerable to at-guns or vehicles and not being too dominant and punishing early on before the vet2 boni kick in.

getting the HP buff at a VET 2 or even vet 3 as a OKW HT would be a good thing which will make you play more safelly with it and letting it vet up to be good even at a late game.

The USF HT is clunky while moving.

The OKW HT is clunky while giving attack orders. IIRC you can no longer bypass the setup animation while giving attack orders (the setup bar on top of it is useless, bugged and misguiding)

So you if you analyse the situation:

-You have a unit which arrives pretty early.
-While it dies like any other HT in 2 hits, it has vet0 smoke.
-While it has smoke, is has a horrible setup mechanic with 0 use on the move.
-It will die to the USF HT even if it's already setup ahead of time.

What if:

Put it behind the medic upgrade.
Let it shoot on the move with HORRIBLE accuracy against infantry. It will be able to suppress like the USF HT and won't be able to get destroyed by clowncars.

I think the flak HT is pretty much fine where it is; I use it most games as OKW, and don't have any major complaints.

That said, if we are buffing it, I'd like to see its armor increased to match the M15AA-HT. Right now the FHT is at 11/5.5, and it can take a surprising amount of damage from mainline infantry rifles (Penals, IS, Rifles). It would be nice if it was a little bit more resistant to small arms, like the AA-HT (15/10) or even the M5 (USF/SOV - 28.5/20).

People think Flaktrack is poor because they keep pushing them too hard, I have been using them lately with great effect.

•  
  

  0

  VS

  Zero

  Faramir

  3

  A flaktrack to remember

  by: zerocoh map: Unknown

  1

  -

•  
  

  0

  VS

  Zero

  .:PSG:. RedxWings

  2

  Fun non meta match

  by: zerocoh map: Arnhem Checkpoint

  1

  -

sure, they are very vulnerable vs their hard counters, but isn't it the point of HARD counters? the thing about about flaktracks is that the ally player ABSOLUTELY needs to counter it since it is a mobile 360 degree flak that also has smoke to escape. When well timed and well microed the flaktrack is absolute a nightmare to deal with.

now that the unit is going to be cheaper they will be way more viable in the very early and also on the very late game (yes LATE game when people tend to be pushing infantry move into enemy territory while also trying to not put their vehicles into harm).

I have watched both games and they are pretty entertaining. Good matches.


I watched how you used the FHT and it was fine but I could see that it was having troubles really in vetting.



The game vs PSG REDWINGS.

You used the FHT and you got it around 7:15. It was decent at pinning units (no doubt about that) but it has a major problem in vetting because it took actually 20 minutes before your FHT could even acquire the Veterancy 2.

Not that it was due to skill but it was due to its lacking performance against infantry. I will tell you furthermore later why it was having problems vetting.

During that game, it did not do produce enough damage output nor kills. It simply missed most of the time which is why I really do not like the way the FHT is.

What it is supposed to do is to also pin and kill models but it seems to only do a decent job at pinning and a bad job at killing.

Throughout that 20mins, you could manage to get the FHT around 10-13 kills.

When came in late THE PANTHER, it got more kills than the FHT, lol

The output of the FHT is definitely poor and terrible.



2nd game (vs Faramir)

In ths game, you were a bit more lucky to acquire Vet faster due to one thing. The enemy squad taking cover behind a tree (yellow cover and clumped).

That is really the only opportunity you can ever really get kills and vet properly. As well you had to get real close in order to get kills.

I have been watching and its simply awful mid and long range. It can only pin but not kill because it takes forever.

Another reason why you Vet fast was the fact that you damaged the enemy Halftrack from afar.

Damaging infantry is not enough at all because it always misses but against lights which is really rare, you can consistently acquire vet more better.





Conclusion of FHT


It is good at suppressing, definitely a good mobile MG platorm but nothing more other than that really, and it can shoot planes down. That is all its good at.

In order for it to get kills,
1.- Enemy squad has to be around a tree (yellow cover and clumped)
2.- Close range

When it sucks terribly at getting kills
1.- In the open mid and long range.
2.- In buildings, real terrible
3.- Cant kill units properly on the retreat



Why does it suck at getting kills and I conclude:


Damage output is lacking, ROF is slow, reload long, accuracy bad, scatter bad. Nothing to compensate for its other cons and consequences.

You can check the coh2bd unit stats, it shows pretty much everything.


Damage output is bad because of the fact it does 16 damage is just too poor due to its accuracy.

Accuracy (near); 0.775 (mid); 0.56 (far); 0.46

According to the stats, it is only reliable "near" in order to ever achieve kills really. Mid and long it just unreliable.



What it definitely needs buffs on:

Make its accuracy on mid and far more close to 0.7 and higher. It has to be consistent which it utterly lacks.

Maybe ROF buff because it is slow or decrease the reload time in order to shoot more frequently either way. It just shoots too little compared to USF AA which has better chances in many more engagements.

Maybe Damage increase to 20, in order better combat lights and infantry. (Fails to meet its description, claimed as being good against infantry and lights. It is just not good in either.)


At the moment, it really sucks at Vetting. Due to the very fact its damage output and efficiency is not good enough.


Honestly, a Wehr scout car is more efficient against infantry, lights and even against units in the sky. Even cheaper.

What is FHT even better at, just AA really and suppression. Nothing more. Just badly designed in its current state is all I can say