Rear Echelon, to be more supportive and viable ?

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I feel they need to be changed more, to make it a more of a viable combat/supportive unit.

It should the kind of unit that supports infantry more, like providing Riflemen a passive booster in reload and rate of fire.

Provides passive ability near their allies but not themselves!



My idea is since Rear Echelons itself was not a good combat unit, it sure was a more a support unit.

Rear Echelons when near infantry or Riflemen in this instance, gives allies a passive booster, should provide faster reload and rate of fire.

The passive ability should be called "Brothers at Arms". Something that provides a boost in their performance.




Since Rear Echelons cant do much other than support I think it should do that.

Also, the more Echelons you get, the better the passive ability will become.


Having 2 (only when together near other infantry) Rear Echelons alongside infantry or Riflemen, will further enhance reload and rate of fire, but also provides now an accuracy bonus.

Having even 3 will further improve their combat superiority, not to themselves but to others!


WHY?


Since you trade Riflemen for more Echelons, it should not in this way cost you necessarily your AI performance, rather improve their Sheer quality it provides to Riflemen instead of the favour of quantity.

Thus, creates an incentive drive for getting more Echelons.




How is this of an idea?

EDIT - This was not so great an idea (the idea stated above), my apologies.


Here is a different better idea instead in order to make Echelons, utilized more!:


What if Rear Echelons can acquire themselves with either the Bars and Bazookas already in the beginning without weapon tech.

The tech for "unlocking weapon racks" is meant only for other classes. The unlocking purchase should be purposely used as for mid-late game scale and increased infantry superiorty. The tech locks purposely any other form of USF infantry except Rear Echelons only.

Rear Echelons should be able acquire them early ignoring/without the need to tech.

Since the timing of most other mobile infantry ATs are accessible more early without much cost, the fact that is not a great AI unit, it is more designed a supportive unit role.

Another interesting thing would be also, if Rear Echelons could acquire Bars early too but instead they will recieve a 30-40% discount on Bars only.

In this way, to improve support and for a more effective use with "Surpressive Fire" since it only get better the more useful the weapons are!

This would definitely be a better change in order to make Rear Echelons, in this way, more popular.

So this would be a buff to all USF starting infantry rather than actually buffing REs..... Yeah don't think USF needs MORE buffs to their starters.

That and I'm probably the only person who thinks REs are good. I just don't expect them to push volks from entrenchment or fully stop sturmpioneers.

Despite the fact that I am a player of the allies, and especially the USF, I say that your idea is crazy. Although the rear echelon is trash in front of the stormtrooper. Nevertheless, such a passive ability will make the riflemans OP. I think the echelon deserves a flamethrower and that’s it. Better pay attention to such ranks as Lieutenant and Captain, which are just a copy of the riflemans and do not justify their name. Oh yes, I forgot, they have the unique ability to buy a bar and a bazooka (which penetrates only light vehicle) without racks, they do the same with volks and grens with their weapons. This captain or lieutenant should give a passive ability, and not a 200 mp echelon.

And of course, it’s very strange to see the offer for the rear echelon from the axis fan. Is this a pre-conceived move? To later offer something incredibly wild for okw and ostheer?

From what I noticed the REs are mainly used as cheaper bazooka troops and cache builders, especially when the USF player also goes Infantry/Heavy Cav and now Rifle Company for the Riflemen field defenses. They're not as required as for the Ost or Sov for example because they don't build the HQ buildings.

Perhaps giving them some sort of late game upgrade similar to the UKF Sapper "Heavy Sapper" upgrade to give them more utility? I'm not entirely sure what else to do with them in terms of utility, they're obviously not going to be as good as the Riflemen in the combat role. Unless...

Maybe an M1919A6 upgrade with a "setup" ability? Squad becomes a light machine gun team alternative to the .50 cal, gets the old rifle ability when they had the M1919A6s equipped, can't equip any other weapon. I'd say it be a cheaper option if you needed suppression, you'd be trading some ammo for manpower and fuel (to unlock LT tier).

Sure it's more of a combat role but like I said, I really don't know what else to do with them and your idea sounds a bit... on the extreme side of things so to speak, they'd be more of an officer type unit providing a boost aura to other units around them than actual support/utility units...

just give them bars og lmgs.

If you want a tough combat squad, why are you building RETs instead of Rifles?

RETs are dirt cheap weapon carriers, and they're very good at that. If you want more expensive repair squads that can fight, that's what Assault Engineers are for.

Maybe Echelons instead should provide since they stay a lot behind the action,

provide a booster to their support weapons.


Provides the USF AT gun with a minor boost in terms of penetration only. The more Echelons near AT guns, the better the penetration will be.

Solves in some ways their penetration, support AT gun issue.

USF AT gun is undeniably one of the best AT guns, best at dealing with lights most definitely and mediums.

Heavies, not so much. That is its major con. So this idea might help improve their chances.


When Echelons near a HMG, provides a reload boost. Something minor since their MG is great overall.


When Echelons near a small mortar, provides reload boost but when near a Pack Howizter, it provides instead better movement speed.



Just so Echelons can provide better and be somewhat useful even behind the action.

They're more expensive Combat Engineers with better scaling.

I don't see why they need a command aura.

just decrease cost and other thing is no need more

Maybe a 'Hit-the-dirt' type of ability at Vet 1 or 2 could be interesting. Providing them better sustain (lower received accuracy) when capping a point.

I just find the current suppression ability underused. Once you get bazookas, it becomes useless - so it should be changed to make it useful whether BARs or bazookas are picked.

Suggestion is bad.

If anything wants to be changed for the sake of variety then...

I'm on the idea that Axis bunkers and fighting pits should be cheaper and the cost be moved more towards the upgrades. Then you might have RET inside them, using Volley fire and using those lob nades.

Rear Echelon are fine as is and shouldn't really be the kind of unit that gets spammed or otherwise built in huge numbers anyway.

Suggestion is bad.

If anything wants to be changed for the sake of variety then...

I'm on the idea that Axis bunkers and fighting pits should be cheaper and the cost be moved more towards the upgrades. Then you might have RET inside them, using Volley fire and using those lob nades.

I'd be more inclined to support this if ostheer bunkers weren't so tough to kill. The price for fighting pits isn't even really that bad right now, imo, but since they limit practical dps by the squad inside and can be easily destroyed by simple small arms fire, they only really see use as a HMG position. It's usually a waste of MP otherwise.

They should, IMO, be given a rifle grenade barrage instead of volley fire. +50% damage to units in buildings, rifle nades get fired at intervals of 4~ seconds, fires 4 grenades.

Would help with garrison clear, and allow REs to support rifles at long range.

Why fix something that isn't broken? RETs are not a great fighting squad, but most engineers aren't either. As far as I remember their reinforcement cost is at 25 (Volk level) so maybe that could be brought down to 22 or their sight range increased to pioneer level. I don't think they need anything more than that.

I like giving sweeper and zooks to my echelons so they support my infantry with light AT, they become somewhat useful then.

Rear Echelon troops are pretty bad as anti infantry units at all ranges, which is disappointing given that they have arguably one of the best rifles of the war. (A controversial opinion, I know, but the M1 Carbine is actually a very fine combat weapon for its era.)

What I’d like to see is a nerf to RE accuracy on the move and a buff to accuracy and rate of fire while in cover. They should be strong on the defensive, because they have good rifles that can really lay down a lot of fire, but are also not trained combat troops and would thus not be good on the offensive. This out of cover penalty would be removed at vet 3, since by then they would be Veteran troops trained by the fires of combat and end up being actually very good troops that are cheap to reinforce, but require a lot of babysitting before they hit vet 3.

I think it would make mixed builds of Riflemen and Rear Echelons more interesting. All Riflemen would still be standard and good throughout, but all Rear Echelon builds would be very weak early game, plus no snares but become pretty strong late game if you have the skill to survive that long and preserve your units. Mixed builds of 50/50 Riflemen and REs would be really interesting.

Note that I don’t think vet 3 REs should be more powerful as vet 3 Riflemen at all ranges, but be just as good as them at all ranges and slightly better as close range. Vet 2 and below, however, Riflemen would be better than REs at all ranges.

I don't think this is a good idea because REs have their own abilities and uses in the game as others pointed out.

The only time I see an issue is when you choose a commander that has specific RE upgrades like the flamethrower because it complicates the RE's combat role

The most efficient role for REs is as an AT squad w/ double zooks because the additional sweeper doesn't reduce the combat effectiveness of the squad vs. armoured vehicles and at vet 3 they get a fifth man to increase survive-ability.

This efficiency is increased when accounting for other squads that could have bazookas; LT and Captain have a Thompson, so a double BAR on those squads augments the close range DPS of their SMGs. Riflemen are expensive and have good anti-infantry DPS when upgraded. The Major has too little models to be an effective combat squad.
REs can take advantage of their volley fire ability when they're equipped with BAR(s)/M1919 but, again, you're better off putting those upgrades on your riflemen or other combat infantry squads like rangers or airborne.

With the flamethrower or the rifle grenade package, you're sacrificing DPS if you get zooks or a minesweeper so if you want 4x zooks on the field you're forced to either build an extra RE squad or put zooks on other squads that would be better off in an anti-infantry role.

Of course, the LT and Captain provide some utility with their smoke grenades disabling the main guns of enemy tanks if fired directly at them (but REs have this too), and the Captain's fire up ability can help get squads to a position faster to snare or fire more zooks. Perhaps on less open map the RE upgrades make them better for the flamethrower/rifle grenade package and you'd rather get zooks, but riflemen are just real good at mid range with upgrades. The only time you could get a better zook squad than REs is with the airborne support squad that gets the camo w/ the zook upgrade.

tl;dr REs are best at being an AT squad with zooks because of the attributes of the squad as well as the attributes of other squads in the USF faction.

Did I miss something in my argument here?

I don't think this is a good idea because REs have their own abilities and uses in the game as others pointed out.

The only time I see an issue is when you choose a commander that has specific RE upgrades like the flamethrower because it complicates the RE's combat role

The most efficient role for REs is as an AT squad w/ double zooks because the additional sweeper doesn't reduce the combat effectiveness of the squad vs. armoured vehicles and at vet 3 they get a fifth man to increase survive-ability.

This efficiency is increased when accounting for other squads that could have bazookas; LT and Captain have a Thompson, so a double BAR on those squads augments the close range DPS of their SMGs. Riflemen are expensive and have good anti-infantry DPS when upgraded. The Major has too little models to be an effective combat squad.
REs can take advantage of their volley fire ability when they're equipped with BAR(s)/M1919 but, again, you're better off putting those upgrades on your riflemen or other combat infantry squads like rangers or airborne.

With the flamethrower or the rifle grenade package, you're sacrificing DPS if you get zooks or a minesweeper so if you want 4x zooks on the field you're forced to either build an extra RE squad or put zooks on other squads that would be better off in an anti-infantry role.

Of course, the LT and Captain provide some utility with their smoke grenades disabling the main guns of enemy tanks if fired directly at them (but REs have this too), and the Captain's fire up ability can help get squads to a position faster to snare or fire more zooks. Perhaps on less open map the RE upgrades make them better for the flamethrower/rifle grenade package and you'd rather get zooks, but riflemen are just real good at mid range with upgrades. The only time you could get a better zook squad than REs is with the airborne support squad that gets the camo w/ the zook upgrade.

tl;dr REs are best at being an AT squad with zooks because of the attributes of the squad as well as the attributes of other squads in the USF faction.

Did I miss something in my argument here?

No, you did not miss any points.


I was just thinking about Rear Echelons more than other engineers since others have many role fulfillments.


The best designed engineers I must say in this game is Wehr Pio and SU Engineer because they have 2 clear distinctive roles, and some which they will recieve from the update soon.

1.- Mine Sweeper and the fact they fill the role of better repairs (soon with the upcoming update) and clearing mines.

2.- Flamethrower which is the best design, mainly used as a support and effectively used to throw away the bonuses the enemy recieves when behind cover and in buildings.


The next best Engineer and yet broken is UKF Royal Engineers. Can pretty much do anything up to fulfilling either the role of a AI supporter or AT unit.


Soon Sturmpio is getting some deserved changes, such as filling more a suitable scaling role in combat. Surely a change that makes it yet more viable.



But Rear Echelons, I am not so sure since they are not recieving much changes in order for them to be utilized more often.



Here is a different idea:


What if Rear Echelons can acquire themselves with either the Bars and Bazookas already in the beginning without weapon tech.

The tech for "unlocking weapon racks" is meant only for other classes. The unlocking purchase should be purposely used as for mid-late game scale and increased infantry superiorty. The tech locks purposely any other form of USF infantry except Rear Echelons only.

Rear Echelons should be able acquire them early ignoring/without the need to tech.

Since the timing of most other mobile infantry ATs are accessible more early without much cost, the fact that is not a great AI unit, it is more designed a supportive unit role.

Another interesting thing would be also, if Rear Echelons could acquire Bars early too but instead they will recieve a 30-40% discount on Bars only.

In this way, to improve support and for a more effective use with "Surpressive Fire" since it only get better the more useful the weapons are!

This would definitely be a better change in order to make Rear Echelons, in this way, more popular.

I personally would like them to start as 5 man squad so they could survive bit longer, possibly even keep extra man with vet, 6 man re would be intresting sight. Price however requires some increase.

super cheap squads with suppressing, can pick up two weapons from a rack(nondoc) while can carry sweeper at the same time... whats more needed? dealing with 300mp units?

super cheap squads with suppressing, can pick up two weapons from a rack(nondoc) while can carry sweeper at the same time... whats more needed? dealing with 300mp units?

Camo with first strike bonus, then we can talk about consistent brit squad