Soviet September patch discussion

This concept does not work very much to compensate for the price of 300 mp Maxim and leave the presence of units on the map at the same level as he is (and I must say that Soviet is one of the worst for the factions), the price of Conscripts should be reduced to 200 mp. And this will create a bunch of problems: the productivity of the Draftee should be nerf to the Osttruppen level or the Osttruppen buff to the Conscripts? 200 mp Conscripts is also touched by the T1 balance. So this concept will destroy more than create.

Maxim problem:

Maxim must become normal HMG as others. Cheap maxim lead us to maxim spam, maxim without suppression lead us to SU without HMG. Every nation must have workable AI area denial tool. If maxim will get arc of fire like vickers, increased suppression with increased cost it will solve problem with maxim spam and with weak maxim. Better have workable HMG, than don't have it at all.

Penal-cons problem:
IMO cons must become MAINLINE infantry for SU, while penals become support units as pgrens for OST. Pgrens good support, they too expensive to use them as mainline infantry and don't have snares. Without shreck they are good Close-Mid AI unit, with shreck good AT unit. Penals should get the same treatment. It will solve problem when SU have 2 "possible" mainline infantry.

Cons problem:
Cons became prey of weak maxim, strong penals and point of view that they are support units. In fact, we first must decide what role cons have - support or mainline infantry? Let's look to possible decisions:

Support cons:
1. Cons become 200MP cheap unit with AT nades and molotovs (after upgrades / when building deployed). Cost of reinforce decreased to 15MP. Speed of reinforce the same as for osttrupen. Battle stats drastically decreased to level of osttruppen. Could build fasten sandbags.
Have toggle ability "AutoMerge" when active - automatically merging with nearby squad if cons have 3 or more mans. also have "Manual merge" that work as "old merge" - you could use the whole squad members to merging.
Move faster if nearby have allied infantry squad (except snipers). It will make merge more usable and will work like old sprint.
With T4 deployed will get 7th man and passive healing when stay in cover.

2. Maxim will get buff and increased cost and become good HMG.
3. Penals become mainline infantry. Renamed to Strelki. In start have 6 mosins. Could will get 1 of 2 upgrades:
1. 6 svt instead mosins and frag grenades
2. 4 ppsh, satchels
When T3 deployed could make global upgrade "Intensive training":
If have svt - when in cover will get bonus to defense.
If have ppsh - when in cover will get bonus to ROF (like UKF sappers).

Cons mainline:
1. Penals become support units - Close-combat AI / AT-hunters, IMO the best way 4 man squads to show them as support units (like engeeners). For close-combat - 3 ppsh + flame and satchels. For AT - 2 ptrs+AT-satchel and at-ability (critical shot like for brit sniper).
2. Maxim will get buff and increased cost and become good HMG.
3. Current cons (with 7th man in T3), i think cost should be slightly decreased to 220 to compensate expensive maxim.

In both variants we must have workable HMG, without it all changes don't work.

Maxim problem:

Maxim must become normal HMG as others. Cheap maxim lead us to maxim spam, maxim without suppression lead us to SU without HMG. Every nation must have workable AI area denial tool. If maxim will get arc of fire like vickers, increased suppression with increased cost it will solve problem with maxim spam and with weak maxim. Better have workable HMG, than don't have it at all.

Penal-cons problem:
IMO cons must become MAINLINE infantry for SU, while penals become support units as pgrens for OST. Pgrens good support, they too expensive to use them as mainline infantry and don't have snares. Without shreck they are good Close-Mid AI unit, with shreck good AT unit. Penals should get the same treatment. It will solve problem when SU have 2 "possible" mainline infantry.

Cons problem:
Cons became prey of weak maxim, strong penals and point of view that they are support units. In fact, we first must decide what role cons have - support or mainline infantry? Let's look to possible decisions:

Support cons:
1. Cons become 200MP cheap unit with AT nades and molotovs (after upgrades / when building deployed). Cost of reinforce decreased to 15MP. Speed of reinforce the same as for osttrupen. Battle stats drastically decreased to level of osttruppen. Could build fasten sandbags.
Have toggle ability "AutoMerge" when active - automatically merging with nearby squad if cons have 3 or more mans. also have "Manual merge" that work as "old merge" - you could use the whole squad members to merging.
Move faster if nearby have allied infantry squad (except snipers). It will make merge more usable and will work like old sprint.
With T4 deployed will get 7th man and passive healing when stay in cover.

2. Maxim will get buff and increased cost and become good HMG.
3. Penals become mainline infantry. Renamed to Strelki. In start have 6 mosins. Could will get 1 of 2 upgrades:
1. 6 svt instead mosins and frag grenades
2. 4 ppsh, satchels
When T3 deployed could make global upgrade "Intensive training":
If have svt - when in cover will get bonus to defense.
If have ppsh - when in cover will get bonus to ROF (like UKF sappers).

Cons mainline:
1. Penals become support units - Close-combat AI / AT-hunters, IMO the best way 4 man squads to show them as support units (like engeeners). For close-combat - 3 ppsh + flame and satchels. For AT - 2 ptrs+AT-satchel and at-ability (critical shot like for brit sniper).
2. Maxim will get buff and increased cost and become good HMG.
3. Current cons (with 7th man in T3), i think cost should be slightly decreased to 220 to compensate expensive maxim.

In both variants we must have workable HMG, without it all changes don't work.

I’m tired of repeating already - the Penals is superfluous, they cover almost all of the Soviet infantry units in the game for the history of the game (to somehow justify their existence), It was the turn of the Shock Troops? Having given PPSh-41 to Penals, they will cover Shock Troops. Just remove the Penals and transfer the SVT-40 as an ammunition upgrade for the Draftee. This will solve huge problems: the eternal question between Conscriptss and Penals - who is the main infantry, C will receive a buff only after P nerf, etc.

Noobs dont know how to play and think that some of their units are responsible for that.

Noobs dont know how to play and think that some of their units are responsible for that.

+1, haha.

inb4 aaa realizes that nobody uses conscripts vs okw in tournaments...

inb4 aaa realizes that nobody uses conscripts vs okw in tournaments...

Noobs like he said /s

Its likley because conscripts are not meant to be independent like volks are and the only unit that is actually worth supporting (penals) doesn't need conscripts to support them. Penals are a tesla and cons are engine oil. But like bad engine oil, you know you are supposed to use it but it's so bad it actually does more damage to your engine than actually helping. Mostly because they are not engine oil they are sand, which has no place anywhere near the inside of your engine and like not even the good sand that you could maybe use for traction if you get stuck.

Small update of my recherche, depending the deathloop:

Like I said, the movement and crew-mechanic of Maxim works like PaK. That means, that the maxim is allways an on-map-enity, unlike other HMGs. The other versions have a transportation mode, which makes the HMS more like a slot-item.

I found two solutions for work-arounds. BUT the animation will be the problem, it is simply not possible to make Maxim working like other weapons.

1. Adding an other weapon-profile, which will be activated if the squad is on retreat. Changing the setup-time to 0. -> That means, that the gunner (the mover) will switch faster the position so the deathloop will be shorten.

2. Adding an invisible ghost crew on retreat, moving the Maxim (looks stupid) which dies when last squad-member died. (Seems to be buggy).

Edit: I will keep looking for other solutions.

if u do post a solution i suggest that you make a thread and make the mod available to the balance team in order for them to review it...

Tried switching to mg 42 and trying to put the visual model only ?

About Soviet and German, an increase in repair when buying a mine detector is inadequate compared to engineers of other fractions: OKW has 4 STG-44 and can buy a panzerschreck + flamethrower with a commander - it has the best repair, the British and the USA can buy any weapon in the rack + flamethrower with commander - has the best repair. At the same time, Soviet and German engineers will receive good repairs only with a loss of combat potential of 25%. Absolutely not adequate, Soviet and German engineers should get a direct repair buff.

Again your bias clouds your judgement...

But what can we expect from someone who has 3k OKW games with less than 400 total allied games...

Anyways you fail to understand the mechanism behind the deathloop... the key is to use AOE damage to do damage to alot of models... at which point 6 man sizes are as irrelevant as 10...

If you do enough damage to kill 4-6 models, the advantages of 6 men & deathloop outweigh the advantages of 4 men and not deathloop. Its pretty simple.

If you do enough damage to kill 4-6 models, the advantages of 6 men & deathloop outweigh the advantages of 4 men and not deathloop. Its pretty simple.

not with AOE weapons... 1 good mortar hit is enough to cause a deathloop... the same mortar hit on a vickers or a 42 still gives it the opportunity to escape...

Well no , 1 good hit with a mortar on 4 model and is a wipe, not even need to click retreat

Jesus... Can't we just agree that the maxim is more survivable than a 4man squad but not as durable as 6 men would lead you to believe due to death loop? We can't quantify it because under different conditions it performs differently. Can we just agree that's more like ~5 men? Meet in the middle? Then we can go back to the actual heart of the thread which is the upcoming changes in the patch, of which the maxim barely is impacted by.

Combat engineers need a consistency buff on their damage. Most of the time they have a non-existant combat value (they still use the 16 damage casino mosins conscripts used to have). They can very few times they are able to kill models on approach, but overall they are complete pushovers without flamers.

Having units without combat value against the western front factions its a no go. Pios got their combat performance buffed to face usf rifles, and I think CE deserve one to fight off okw

id just make CEs cheaper and make em eat less popcap...

No. Because falls seriously lack the survivability. I agree that guards aren't that great but you can't just ignore that fact they are a 6-man squad popping from buildings.

Also they get a great ability with DP-28 upgrade. If you only played them with x6 PPSH definently go and try the DP upgrade.

HI i have tried that dp upgrade. It is expensive and guards always drop a lmg when they die and retreat unlike fg42 or stg.

I have stopped using that commander ultimately.

not with AOE weapons... 1 good mortar hit is enough to cause a deathloop... the same mortar hit on a vickers or a 42 still gives it the opportunity to escape...

For one, if your hit with a mortar, odds are another model wont be killed for the loop to come into play.

For two, when a vikers or a 42 retreating at one man, them not having a deathloop isnt an issue, you do know why right?

HI i have tried that dp upgrade. It is expensive and guards always drop a lmg when they die and retreat unlike fg42 or stg.

I have stopped using that commander ultimately.

Their DPS is solid but I was wondering it was only me felt that way. Looks like something is wrong with guard LMG.

Its because guards have 4 weapons slots being used: 2 ptrs and 2 dps

The more weapon slots used, the higher the chance to drop a weapon upgrade. That's why you rarely see grens or obers drop a lmg while guards are walking pinatas