September Balance Patch preview [SPBP] - general discussion

You're absolutely misinterpreting what he says.
There is not much reason to add truck cost and the less starting fuel.
What counts is the fuel you need to gain until you can tech up to a certain unit, in our case an AT gun.
Now, what's the difference there between the factions?

No one said it's irrelevant. I just said you can't add it to the cost directly like that

Asymmetry comes in too many forms for you to just choose to account for this one mathematically

What about the free flak hq? What about free officers? What about no caches for okw? What about ost and sovs needing the time to physically build buildings? They lose fuel to US, okw, and brits who can start capping territory faster

ok i will change my original post so u can understand

then what about a clone of the zis ? make it come after first truck call in so it's even more expensive than zis tech (will come 5 fuel later than zis )

or a clone of the usf after tier truck call in ? (10 fuel to reach cheaper ,but no free officer)

or a clone of the ukf one always after first truck call in just 5 fuel sooner but no sniper or RE?

ok i will change my original post so u can understand

Understood you plenty, it's just an innacurate way to describe it

So how do you deal with OKW having even less of a counter to clown car? If no more at gun in hq is your choice?

Understood you plenty, it's just an innacurate way to describe it

So how do you deal with OKW having even less of a counter to clown car? If no more at gun in hq is your choice?

atcaully if it comes after the first truck call in (not set up) it will still come around the same time as clown car

tier + clown car = need to wait 5 fuel

truck = need to wait 5 fuel

just

clone the usf at gun


remove the pen round ability

add current preview cloak and first strike bonus to give it 50% more accuracy and pen for the first shoot

tada it's unique now and perfect counter to early LV and LT thanks to bonus accuracy for the first shoot

adjust the vet accordingly

I'd rather give OKW the Pak 40 - an actual german gun - than the same ATG model used already by 2 out of 5 factions pretending to be something it doesn't resemble at all.

I'd rather give OKW the Pak 40 - an actual german gun - than the same ATG model used already by 2 out of 5 factions pretending to be something it doesn't resemble at all.

the model is irrelevant, what i mean is the stats and the gun shield

the model is irrelevant, what i mean is the stats and the gun shield

Why clone the USF AT gun stats specifically then, especially if you also want to give it cloak?

Why clone the USF AT gun stats specifically then, especially if you also want to give it cloak?

cause it can remain cheap and be LV counter ? i mean the cloak would be stationary like the patch one and the first strike bonus would replace the pen rounds

cause it can remain cheap and be LV counter ? i mean the cloak would be stationary like the patch one and the first strike bonus would replace the pen rounds

Yeah, but Axis doesn't need the pen rounds anyway since Allied tanks generally have lower armor values. So you'd just have a high dps ATG at t0 for 15 fuel and 270mp with ambush capability.

Yeah, but Axis doesn't need the pen rounds anyway since Allied tanks generally have lower armor values. So you'd just have a high dps ATG at t0 for 15 fuel and 270mp with ambush capability.

Comet, All KV tanks, churchills, pershing, ISU and IS2 would like a word.

Actually that would make sense if the proposed pak 38 had the soviet doctrinal style camo as its ability instead but made slightly worse since ofc... its nondoctrinal...

Actually that would make sense if the proposed pak 38 had the soviet doctrinal style camo as its ability instead but made slightly worse since ofc... its nondoctrinal...

well yes make it stationary

Comet, All KV tanks, churchills, pershing, ISU and IS2 would like a word.

Endgame tank comparable to Panther
Doctrinal
Doctrinal
Endgame tank again and admittedly a bit too tanky tbh
Doctrinal
Etc

The point remains that the vanilla values of the ATG are more than capable of tackling T-34s and much less reliable versus a PzIV+

Endgame tank comparable to Panther
Doctrinal
Doctrinal
Endgame tank again and admittedly a bit too tanky tbh
Doctrinal
Etc

The point remains that the vanilla values of the ATG are more than capable of tackling T-34s and much less so for a PzIV.

the base usf at gun can't pen allied armor tho Penetration near
150
Penetration mid
140
Penetration far
130

that's hwy it has pen round ability that increase it by 50%, a first strike bonus that gives pen for the first round would be similar but less effective

Endgame tank comparable to Panther
Doctrinal
Doctrinal
Endgame tank again and admittedly a bit too tanky tbh
Doctrinal
Etc

The point remains that the vanilla values of the ATG are more than capable of tackling T-34s and much less so for a PzIV.

doctrinal =/= isn't true. Any AT gun can tackle stock mediums well enough. The only one with subpar pen is the USF ATgun, which in trade gets the widest arc, best RoF, ability to boost pen to becoming the best penning AT gun, increase sight and range as well. So saying that USF AT gun is bad "vanilla" is like saying the pz4 MGs are dogshit because it's "vanilla". When in reality, people buy the MG upgrade which puts it on par with t34 MGs.

doctrinal =/= isn't true. Any AT gun can tackle stock mediums well enough. The only one with subpar pen is the USF ATgun, which in trade gets the widest arc, best RoF, ability to boost pen to becoming the best penning AT gun, increase sight and range as well. So saying that USF AT gun is bad "vanilla" is like saying the pz4 MGs are dogshit because it's "vanilla". When in reality, people buy the MG upgrade which puts it on par with t34 MGs.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I consider the USF ATG one of the best in the game, perhaps only behind the Zis gun (and only because that can barrage.)

I said the weaknesses of the USF ATG would not be nearly as apparent on the Axis side, because of comparably lower armor values for Allied tanks. This statement remains generally true no matter the anecdotal (and quite often doctrinal) Allied heavy tank you choose to bring up. Do you not agree that the USF ATG, without any extra pen rounds, would perform better on the Axis side than the Allied one? At t0? If so, why not?

If you agree, on the other hand, tell me why you think the OKW needs it's AT capabilities buffed so signifigantly and so early on?

the base usf at gun can't pen allied armor tho Penetration near
150
Penetration mid
140
Penetration far
130

that's hwy it has pen round ability that increase it by 50%, a first strike bonus that gives pen for the first round would be similar but less effective

M36 Jackson Armor: 130
Chance to Pen @ Near/Mid/Far
1
1
1

SU-85 / Stug III Armor: 140
Chance to Pen @ Near/Mid/Far
1
1
0.9289

T-34/76 Armor: 150
Chance to Pen @ Near/Mid/Far
1
0.9333
0.8667

M4 Sherman / Cromwell / Firefly Armor: 160
Chance to Pen @ Near/Mid/Far
0.9375
0.875
0.8125

PzIV (Ostheer Vet 0) Armor: 180
Chance to Pen @ Near/Mid/Far
0.8333
0.7778
0.7222

JagdpanzerIV Armor: 230
Chance to Pen @ Near/Mid/Far
0.6522
0.6087
0.5652

PzIV (Ostheer Vet 2 and OKW standard) Armor: 234
Chance to Pen @ Near/Mid/Far
0.641
0.5982
0.5555

Panther (Ostheer vet 0) Armor: 260
Chance to Pen @ Near/Mid/Far
0.5769
0.5384
0.5

Panther (Ostheer vet 2) Armor: 286
Chance to Pen @ Near/Mid/Far
0.5245
0.4895
0.4545

Please don't put words in my mouth. I consider the USF ATG one of the best in the game, perhaps only behind the Zis gun.

I said the weaknesses of the USF ATG would not be nearly as apparent on the Axis side, because of comparably lower armor values for Allied tanks. This statement remains generally true no matter the anecdotal (and quite often doctrinal) Allied heavy tank you choose to bring up. Do you not agree that the USF ATG, without any extra pen rounds, would perform better on the Axis side than the Allied one? At t0? If so, why not?

If you agree, on the other hand, tell me why you think the OKW needs it's AT capabilities buffed so signifigantly and so early on?



M36 Jackson Armor: 130
Chance to Pen @ Near/Mid/Far
1
1
1

SU-85 / Stug III Armor: 140
Chance to Pen @ Near/Mid/Far
1
1
0.9289

T-34/76 Armor: 150
Chance to Pen @ Near/Mid/Far
1
0.9333
0.8667

M4 Sherman / Cromwell / Firefly Armor: 160
Chance to Pen @ Near/Mid/Far
0.9375
0.875
0.8125

PzIV (Ostheer Vet 0) Armor: 180
Chance to Pen @ Near/Mid/Far
0.8333
0.7778
0.7222

JagdpanzerIV Armor: 230
Chance to Pen @ Near/Mid/Far
0.6522
0.6087
0.5652

PzIV (Ostheer Vet 2 and OKW standard) Armor: 234
Chance to Pen @ Near/Mid/Far
0.641
0.5982
0.5555

Panther (Ostheer vet 0) Armor: 260
Chance to Pen @ Near/Mid/Far
0.5769
0.5384
0.5

now try it with pen rounds or any other at gun, there is a reason it has pen rounds at vet 0

the first strike bonus im proposing only work for the firsts shoot out of cloak

if u want we can just keep the pen rounds

or copy the UKF at gun that comes earlier

or even zis

now try it with pen rounds or any other at gun, there is a reason it has pen rounds at vet 0

the first strike bonus im proposing only work for the firsts shoot out of cloak

if u want we can just keep the pen rounds

I would rather not give such a huge t0 AT upgrade to OKW period, and the reasoning is apparently in the fact the OKW simply wouldn't need the AP rounds in the first place.

As far as which of the two would be more lethal or annoying, however, I'd wager the camo and first strike bonus would indeed be more a balance issue than giving any OKW M1 ATG clone superfluous AP shells.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I consider the USF ATG one of the best in the game, perhaps only behind the Zis gun.

I said the weaknesses of the USF ATG would not be nearly as apparent on the Axis side, because of comparably lower armor values for Allied tanks. This statement remains generally true no matter the anecdotal (and quite often doctrinal) Allied heavy tank you choose to bring up. Do you not agree that the USF ATG, without any extra pen rounds, would perform better on the Axis side than the Allied one? At t0? If so, why not?

If you agree, on the other hand, tell me why you think the OKW needs it's AT capabilities buffed so signifigantly and so early on?

It's true that the USF AT gun is better in axis hands than their own, it's also true that axis AT guns are better in allied hands than their own. It's stupid how your stolen AT gun is better than the one your faction gets, but it applies to both sides, which is why you always steal your opponets AT guns.

OKW needs AT ability early because currently people think clowncar is ok. I'm not sure people would think the same if the OST 250 or OKW 221 were nondoc and running over USF because no snares. But for some reason it's ok when flamer engineers do it vs OKW. The fact of the matter is though that the raketen any way you slice it is a piece of cheese and terrible. It's literally the OKW maxim. it gets deathlooped on retreat, the model is garbage which prevents it from being fixed, and does not function in its role correctly. I'm sure most people would agree with getting a pak 40, even though the price would be higher, would be a lot better.

I would rather not give such a huge t0 AT upgrade to OKW period, and the reasoning is apparently in the fact the OKW simply wouldn't need the AP rounds in the first place.

As far as which of the two would be more lethal or annoying, however, I'd wager the camo and first strike bonus would indeed be more a balance issue than giving any OKW M1 ATG clone superfluous AP shells.

1 it would not be tier 0 i said lock it behind truck call in

2 again cloak would be stationary and give only 50% bonus pen and accuracy for the first round

3 why would 1 shoot with 50% more pen be more lethal than multiple shoots with 50% more pen ?

and again

if u want we can just keep the pen rounds

or copy the UKF at gun that comes earlier

or even zis

i was just trying to make it unique and fit the LV and LT counter theme (with the bonus accuracy and coming early with low pen)

It's true that the USF AT gun is better in axis hands than their own, it's also true that axis AT guns are better in allied hands than their own. It's stupid how your stolen AT gun is better than the one your faction gets, but it applies to both sides, which is why you always steal your opponets AT guns.

OKW needs AT ability early because currently people think clowncar is ok. I'm not sure people would think the same if the OST 250 or OKW 221 were nondoc and running over USF because no snares. But for some reason it's ok when flamer engineers do it vs OKW. The fact of the matter is though that the raketen any way you slice it is a piece of cheese and terrible. It's literally the OKW maxim. it gets deathlooped on retreat, the model is garbage which prevents it from being fixed, and does not function in its role correctly. I'm sure most people would agree with getting a pak 40, even though the price would be higher, would be a lot better.

The OKW-SOV balance issue runs a lot deeper than the M3A1 Clown Car alone, but I can agree that it is an issue.

I personally thought the 5-man Raketen was a workable enough solution to Raketen fragility, but to each their own. That it gets deathlooped on retreat is a bit moot since every ATG in the game will have a harder time escaping anyway, not having retreat, and indeed suffering from a 'loop' of their own.

In any case I'd absolutely oppose stealing another faction's ATG and using it instead of the raketen, though wouldn't necessarily be opposed to having a Pak 40 in the Battlegroup HQ or something.