German sniper survivability

This way he is more resilient against AOE, the same vs small arms.

Why should it be the same vs small arms, when its one less model in the unit?

Yeah I had a game where the same AT gun (normal shot) killed two of my snipers, probably cost me the game what with all the guards and penals running around willy nilly. It also happens with the Soviet sniper, except you can simply retreat him if it comes to that. My opponent's sniper actually sat a good 3 second under vet 3 gren LMG fire at medium range and survived to tell the tale. I think the RNG in this game is driving me more and more insane that I already was, eh.

Anyways, I'd say yes to more HP on snipers, not much else. They're supposed to be fragile. But if target tables were back, you'd bet I would advocate for AT guns to have 0% accuracy against infantry.

Why should it be the same vs small arms, when its one less model in the unit?

Because there is no problem with the rate at which it dies to small arms and there is no reason to buff this aspect of the unit. It just needs a buff to the survivability against explosives.

It would still camo better then the soviet sniper which adds to its survivability in a asymmetric way. If the unit was buffed without reducing armor he could be shot at for far too long without dieing and having one unit model does not counteract that problem.

Why should it be the same vs small arms, when its one less model in the unit?

Because the German sniper has other advantages.

1 (This is by far the main reason). Coming out of the same building that Grens/HMG/Mortars come out of. There is no denying that the ease of combined arms as well as ease of deployment is a huge advantage. Soviet T1 building builds EXCRUCIATINGLY slow and is much more expensive. Any soviet build that doesn't begin with 4 conscripts will mean the total loss of map control, which is kinda sad, but true. Adding a sniper into a German build does not interrupt anything and gives up zero map control

2. Has much much better camo than the Soviet sniper.

3. It's already almost impossible to lose your sniper to small arms (if you are paying attention), so a buff against small arms is unnecessary. There is no point in overbuffing an unit all at once when the German sniper is already COMMONLY used in top level 1on1 play (which is clear empirical evidence that the unit is already very good).

@link0: Interesting. I've been trying to work a sniper into my german build since the meta is very T2 focused for Soviets at the moment and have found quite some success as you say (I only build it when I've confirmed they went T2 and no 120mm mortars).

How does the unit measure up when the Soviet goes T1? Is it still worth getting or is it too much of a liability to countersnipe? What about against the 120mm? I'd love to hear the opinion of a better player on this issue.

@link0: Interesting. I've been trying to work a sniper into my german build since the meta is very T2 focused for Soviets at the moment and have found quite some success as you say (I only build it when I've confirmed they went T2 and no 120mm mortars).

How does the unit measure up when the Soviet goes T1? Is it still worth getting or is it too much of a liability to countersnipe? What about against the 120mm? I'd love to hear the opinion of a better player on this issue.

I would stay away from snipers vs t1. Almost everything in it is pretty effective against them. Even penals will tear them up at range. The sniper is very much a anti t2 unit.

He could have armor 1 and hp 80. Chance of surviving AOE, but has to retreat fast to infantry close by. Penals would chew him up fast then, but then again sovs going special rifle command is what counters him anyway..

From what I have seen Soviet sniper dies as easily from mortar shell/ tank fire as German one. Clunky patching can be a reason why sometimes members of the Soviet team are stretched apart but in normal situation one shell is more than enough.

Situation described by Link0 was the reasoning behind changes to camo proposed by me but armour decrease would do just fine I guess.
I just don't want German sniper to become Rambo style unit capable of withstanding concentrated fire from small arms and escaping via stealth mechanics when endangered.

@link0: Interesting. I've been trying to work a sniper into my german build since the meta is very T2 focused for Soviets at the moment and have found quite some success as you say (I only build it when I've confirmed they went T2 and no 120mm mortars).

How does the unit measure up when the Soviet goes T1? Is it still worth getting or is it too much of a liability to countersnipe? What about against the 120mm? I'd love to hear the opinion of a better player on this issue.

I personally build a sniper every game as German, except for Semois (because of decreased effectiveness against buildings). Against, soviet T1, the sniper is still very effective because it's very hard for the soviet sniper to move very much without coming out of camo, which means it's unlikely for him get within range of your sniper IF you have grenadiers a a shield in front. I usually build the sniper as my 4th or 5th T1 unit, so the soviet player should have shown their hand well before then. If he goes for fast M3, then I would of course skip the sniper.

It would take a VERY patient and somewhat lucky soviet player to camo and hold fire well ahead of time in an area that your sniper is likely to be at.

They key is to always have grenadier meat shield in front of your sniper once you know there is an enemy sniper on the field. Always kite after every shot, of course, to stay at max range.

Against 120mm mortars, just don't park your sniper where you expect him to barrage and move fairly often.

?????
watch this video noob
http://www.twitch.tv/helpinghans/c/2988227
german snipers are op if anything they are invi almost 100% percent of time. if you buff them against splash damage how the fuck are people going to kill them?
and they buff them in that patch LOl wtf joke game

?????
watch this video noob
http://www.twitch.tv/helpinghans/c/2988227
german snipers are op if anything they are invi almost 100% percent of time. if you buff them against splash damage how the fuck are people going to kill them?
and they buff them in that patch LOl wtf joke game

My troll senses are tingling.

The difference in suggestions in survival, amount to essentially the following:

At 2x40hp and 2x1 armor, Sov Sniper is effectively a Conscript model with 2x10% armor roll.
At 1x80hp and 1x1 armor, Ost Sniper is effectively a Conscript model with 1x10% armor roll.

Thats a net armor deficit on Ost side.

The Stealth accounts for the practical survival difference inherent in a 2man vs a 1man unit, in terms of micro required to keep them alive on the field. Ost micro relying more heavily on maintaining stealth, Sov on sufficient awareness to retreat the remaining man.

But at 80hp and 1 Armor, whereas hp net total is the same, it would suffer from a net deficit in armor, in comparison to the Sov teams total. Thats still 2xarmor roll for Sov at 10% , vs 1x armor roll for Ost at 10%, specifically vs small arms.

Meaning if you set an Ost and Sov Sniper team vs a theoretical firing squad, the Sov Sniper team will outsurvive the Ost one. Considering small arms survival is the issue of contention regarding what armor value to place, this would favor Sov vs small arms.

Its a fine balance, but I think it should favor the 1man unit, owing to the inherent riskiness of that.
Hence, 80hp 2 Armor Ost Sniper is the reasonable solution.

can anyone tell me the mathematical odds of a zis gun sniping a sniper in a single shot

can anyone tell me the mathematical odds of a zis gun sniping a sniper in a single shot

I believe in another thread it was stated that Zis, Pak, and Su-85 have a 10% chance of sniping an infantry model.

The difference in suggestions in survival, amount to essentially the following:

At 2x40hp and 2x1 armor, Sov Sniper is effectively a Conscript model with 2x10% armor roll.
At 1x80hp and 1x1 armor, Ost Sniper is effectively a Conscript model with 1x10% armor roll.

Thats a net armor deficit on Ost side.

The Stealth accounts for the practical survival difference inherent in a 2man vs a 1man unit, in terms of micro required to keep them alive on the field. Ost micro relying more heavily on maintaining stealth, Sov on sufficient awareness to retreat the remaining man.

But at 80hp and 1 Armor, whereas hp net total is the same, it would suffer from a net deficit in armor, in comparison to the Sov teams total. Thats still 2xarmor roll for Sov at 10% , vs 1x armor roll for Ost at 10%, specifically vs small arms.

Meaning if you set an Ost and Sov Sniper team vs a theoretical firing squad, the Sov Sniper team will outsurvive the Ost one. Considering small arms survival is the issue of contention regarding what armor value to place, this would favor Sov vs small arms.

Its a fine balance, but I think it should favor the 1man unit, owing to the inherent riskiness of that.
Hence, 80hp 2 Armor Ost Sniper is the reasonable solution.

Also, Flare Mines, which havent yet sufficiently entered the meta, but I am sure they will, is something that needs to be accounted for in Sniper balance. It will flat out wipe the Ost Sniper for a ridiculously low cost, and readily spammable by the ubiquitous Cons that will have Vet even before a Sniper arrives on the field.

I don't get your math.

2 x 40 = 1 x 80

with armour value being the same and equals 1.


When you leave German aromur value at 2 you will have:

2 (1 x 80) = 160

while Soviet team:

1 (2 x 40) = 80

German sniper survivability is good. I consistantly get snipers in the early game and by the end they have 40+ kills. If you keep them behind and constantly adjacent to grens/mg42 they play a harassing role perfectly.

In terms of the snipers being able to be resistant against mortar fire I completely disagree. Arty or tank rush is the prime method in which I lose my Ostheer snipers. You remove this option from the Soviet player what else have they got to do when this unit is in the hands of a good player?

If you believe your sniper will be targeted by in-direct fire it is time to be more conservative with it, keep it by itself to avoid it becoming collateral damage and aim to remove the in-direct fire threat. I personally have no problems with my sniper and get it the majority of my games.

I believe in another thread it was stated that Zis, Pak, and Su-85 have a 10% chance of sniping an infantry model.

If this value is true then I am the most unlucky sniper user ever. It is rare if you manage to snipe whole Zis crew (if your enemy let you fire 6x) cuz most of the time Zis will kill the sniper. Also Su-85 with scopes = dead sniper if he jumps out of cover or shoot at the enemy.

I don't get your math.

2 x 40 = 1 x 80

with armour value being the same and equals 1.


When you leave German aromur value at 2 you will have:

2 (1 x 80) = 160

while Soviet team:

1 (2 x 40) = 80

Why are you doubling the hitpoints from 2 armor.
1 Armor is a 10% chance of deflect. 2 Armor is a 20% chance of deflect.

I repeat:
At 2x40hp and 2x1 armor, Sov Sniper is effectively a Conscript model with 2x10% armor roll.
At 1x80hp and 1x1 armor, Ost Sniper is effectively a Conscript model with 1x10% armor roll.

In terms of the snipers being able to be resistant against mortar fire I completely disagree. Arty or tank rush is the prime method in which I lose my Ostheer snipers. You remove this option from the Soviet player what else have they got to do when this unit is in the hands of a good player?

If you believe your sniper will be targeted by in-direct fire it is time to be more conservative with it, keep it by itself to avoid it becoming collateral damage and aim to remove the in-direct fire threat. I personally have no problems with my sniper and get it the majority of my games.

In 2v2 there is nearly no room to do so. Your sniper is either shooting aka near the battle or standing far away aka useless. Most of the maps are so small (nearly all exp Moscow tbh) and concentration of deadly units and arty so high that you have no other choice: either use him and risk getting killed by one shell or let him in your base.

Why are you doubling the hitpoints from 2 armor.
1 Armor is a 10% chance of deflect. 2 Armor is a 20% chance of deflect.

I repeat:
At 2x40hp and 2x1 armor, Sov Sniper is effectively a Conscript model with 2x10% armor roll.
At 1x80hp and 1x1 armor, Ost Sniper is effectively a Conscript model with 1x10% armor roll.

That's totally wrong.

1 armour means when a hit is rolled from small arms that hit will deal damage every time

2 armour means when a hit is rolled from small arms that hit will deal damage 50% of the time.

The penetration of all small arms weapons is 1, to work out the percentage penetration chance its the penetration of the weapon divided by the armour x 100

currently armour is modeled in the spreadsheets as effectively increasing infantry HP.