Pak Howitzer needs adjustment

It's very telling that you refused to respond the first time I called you out on this.

I didnt even bothered to answer your question, to let you realize how stupid it was.
I stated my point of view in the thread prior to this, but in case you forgot:

Let me put it clear:
Is it fair to compare Pak howies to former howitzers? NO
Is it fair to compare pak howies to mortars? NO

Because it gets the best of both worlds. Autoatack (howitz dont) and more range (mortars fall short) therefore. Its only disadvantage, "its fragile", but it can always be recrewed, because other team weapons, THEY HAVE TO BE IN ACTUAL COMBAT RANGE, involving risk of being stealed/destroyed.
And the only excuse i get from all this is: They are expensive! (like literally dirt cheap if you compare to the former howitzers or the damage they are able to do)

You did consider tech cost for pak howies, how funny, then we should do the same for Wstukas, the only natural counter or Pwerfer.

To cherrypick arguments is a sign of how loose their bolts are.

IMO AoE should go down to slightly above ISG levels (instead of close to 2x lol) but otherwise it's fine.

IMO AoE should go down to slightly above ISG levels (instead of close to 2x lol) but otherwise it's fine.

Only autoattacks should get nerfed while barrage gets buffed.

I didnt even bothered to answer your question, to let you realize how stupid it was.
I stated my point of view in the thread prior to this, but in case you forgot:

Let me put it clear:
Is it fair to compare Pak howies to former howitzers? NO
Is it fair to compare pak howies to mortars? NO

Because it gets the best of both worlds. Autoatack (howitz dont) and more range (mortars fall short) therefore. Its only disadvantage, "its fragile", but it can always be recrewed, because other team weapons, THEY HAVE TO BE IN ACTUAL COMBAT RANGE, involving risk of being stealed/destroyed.
And the only excuse i get from all this is: They are expensive! (like literally dirt cheap if you compare to the former howitzers or the damage they are able to do)

You did consider tech cost for pak howies, how funny, then we should do the same for Wstukas, the only natural counter or Pwerfer.

To cherrypick arguments is a sign of how loose their bolts are.

Less damage than a howitzer and less mobile than a mortar. What category is most proper for the pack howitzer, if I had to choose between those two items, I can't say, but generally, since howitzer happens to actually be in the name of the unit, I err in that direction. At the end of the day, they are all indirect fire units, and comparisons can be made nevertheless in either direction.

And yes, it is expensive. Is it worth it's price? Yes. Because of it's barrages? No. Range? The autoattack range is even the same as the Ostheer mortar, and I would be willing to suggest that two grw34s would probably do more damage overall than a single pack howitzer (480mp vs 340mp). But you pay for the consistent output it delivers; having an autoattack that is effective at dislodging a static enemy. This is why any proposal to remove or nerf autofire MUST either allow the M1 to still perform this role adequately still, or (more likely, given the limitation of barrage and the probability that autofire would be overnerfed) allow it to deal more damage in bursts via buffed barrages, making it more like the other howitzers in the game.

And yes, it is very fragile. Certainly as much as, if not moreso, than any 240mp mortar in the game. Saying walking stukas of all things are the only counter to the pack Howie is like saying the M36 is the only counter to Axis armor (and might as well imply that mortars themselves are all uncounterable). As said already, the autoattack range is already matched by all of your own Ostheer IDF options; the pack howitzer's range advantage is only apparent in its barrages. The crew all wear 1.25 target size bullet magnet vests, and clump directly around the howitzer at all times, hence the often repeated and very much accurate claim that a single P4 hit could decrew it. To make matters even easier, I have repeatedly suggested some sort of teardown/setup nerf to make this unit even more vulnerable to either call-in artillery/strikes or flanks/pushes than it already is.

Furthermore, we've already discussed methods of reworking this unit in a way that removes or nerfs autofire while keeping it useful; you're the one who has continuously fallen apart over the mere suggestion that the Pack Howitzer be anything but a long range mortar (and, apparently, the only one you want USF to have, if you still believe anything you said in your first post in this thread), when it has been abundantly clear over and over that nobody is going to pay 340 manpower and 8 popcap for a mortar that cannot lay free smoke and which is utterly fucked if ever contacted by the enemy since it cannot retreat. Nor will anyone pay the same for a barrage-only howitzer that is generally incapable of killing a single model.

You refuse to answer my questions because you have absolutely no real suggestions beyond an impulsive nerf to essentially remove a unit from the game. The fact your main complaint about the unit is now it's range, when everyone up to this point, and even yourself, have been talking about the autoattack capability, proves as much.

There's no argument to cherrypick. You have offered absolutely nothing constructive this entire thread.

Im going to put this in simple terms.
OKW has stuka = squad wipe rocket arty
Wher has panzerwerfer = squad wipe rocket arty
Sov has kat = squad wipe rocket art
USF has Pak howie = consistent damage, wipe potential
UKF has base howitzer + mortar pit = Potential wipe/area denial.

each faction in this game has some sort of indirect options to take out infantry, some more effective than others. The USF+UKF have consistent damage units that wear the enemy force down over time while the other factions have the devastating one-click rockets that can wipe out squads but can only do it when the barrage is available.

...

And then compare it with other howitzers stats.

USF already has a mortar (not that I wanted it) so what the point of having 2 stock mortars with pretty much the same stats?

And then compare it with other howitzers stats.

USF already has a mortar (not that I wanted it) so what the point of having 2 stock mortars with pretty much the same stats?

Howitzer are barrage only units that either require fuel and more mp investment, while been static or require munition investment in the case of UKF.

I don't see the similarities with any mortar when:
-There is no mortar which gets 120 on barrage. UKF mortar emplacement is 115 while been static.
-There's no mortar which get's better vet than the Pak Howie. Both WP and Heat shells are miles ahead of what any indirect fire unit receives with vet.
-The closest thing to it, either the ISG or 120mm has obvious drawbacks and neither perform as good even if you account for cost.

ISG trades AoE for accuracy and RoF while having the worst vet in the game.
120mm trades RoF and accuracy for having AoE.

With how "weak" indirect units were made, the current Pack Howie should either have the RoF and/or the scatter of other mortars. I would have to test it to see if there's also a difference in travel time of shells due to arc fire.

Im going to put this in simple terms.
OKW has stuka = squad wipe rocket arty
Wher has panzerwerfer = squad wipe rocket arty
Sov has kat = squad wipe rocket art
USF has Pak howie = consistent damage, wipe potential
UKF has base howitzer + mortar pit = Potential wipe/area denial.

each faction in this game has some sort of indirect options to take out infantry, some more effective than others. The USF+UKF have consistent damage units that wear the enemy force down over time while the other factions have the devastating one-click rockets that can wipe out squads but can only do it when the barrage is available.

The funny thing is, from all those units you mention, the only units which can't wipe are both the Pak Howie (not heat) and the mortar pit. You should replace Pak Howie with Scott.

...

What about this concept (outside of just adjusting AA and giving the 6th man back).

-Unit gets it's 6th model back.
-AA stats changed to be closer to 120mm mortar (RoF and Scatter nerfs).
-Barrage cd reduced

-Heat shells no longer gained on vet. Instead, after getting a major, Pack Howitzer can be upgraded to use this type of shells for barrage for X fuel cost.
-Number of shells increased to 5.
-Range increased to 160.
-After using HEAT, disables AA/normal barrage till cd is down.
After upgrade:
-Increase time to deploy. Same time to move away.
-Increases pop from 9 to 11 (old popcap). By comparison, Howitzers are 15pop.

-Re-arranged veterancy.
-Vet 1 remains the same. Vet2 gives 30% barrage recharge. Vet3 gives -20% scatter on barrage +2 shells on heat (similar to vet1 on SU Howitzer).

What about this concept (outside of just adjusting AA and giving the 6th man back).

-Unit gets it's 6th model back.
-AA stats changed to be closer to 120mm mortar (RoF and Scatter nerfs).
-Barrage cd reduced

-Heat shells no longer gained on vet. Instead, after getting a major, Pack Howitzer can be upgraded to use this type of shells for barrage for X fuel cost.
-Number of shells increased to 5.
-Range increased to 160.
-After using HEAT, disables AA/normal barrage till cd is down.
After upgrade:
-Increase time to deploy. Same time to move away.
-Increases pop from 9 to 11 (old popcap). By comparison, Howitzers are 15pop.

-Re-arranged veterancy.
-Vet 1 remains the same. Vet2 gives 30% barrage recharge. Vet3 gives -20% scatter on barrage +2 shells on heat (similar to vet1 on SU Howitzer).

Will be fun on 1vs1 with a 160 range howitzer parked on my base and firing at my opponent base.
Give all barrages 5 shells, cut its cd in half and yeah nerf the AA as much as you want.

As I said before, the same dudes will come here to cry that the pakhowi is OP has hell because it burst everything down and more when it get its heat shells.

What about this concept (outside of just adjusting AA and giving the 6th man back).

-Unit gets it's 6th model back.
-AA stats changed to be closer to 120mm mortar (RoF and Scatter nerfs).
-Barrage cd reduced

-Heat shells no longer gained on vet. Instead, after getting a major, Pack Howitzer can be upgraded to use this type of shells for barrage for X fuel cost.
-Number of shells increased to 5.
-Range increased to 160.
-After using HEAT, disables AA/normal barrage till cd is down.
After upgrade:
-Increase time to deploy. Same time to move away.
-Increases pop from 9 to 11 (old popcap). By comparison, Howitzers are 15pop.

-Re-arranged veterancy.
-Vet 1 remains the same. Vet2 gives 30% barrage recharge. Vet3 gives -20% scatter on barrage +2 shells on heat (similar to vet1 on SU Howitzer).

It's worth testing, I suppose, though I really don't think the HEAT rework is neccessary in this case. HEAT already has worse scatter and veterancy reqs means it won't be coming as a surprise to anyone. All the upgrading just seems an unneccessary complication. I can understand the intention of using it as an upgrade into the howitzer role, which is interesting, I'm just not sure it'd work out.

I'd really have to test it out to know for sure.

I didnt even bothered to answer your question, to let you realize how stupid it was.
I stated my point of view in the thread prior to this, but in case you forgot:

Let me put it clear:
Is it fair to compare Pak howies to former howitzers? NO
Is it fair to compare pak howies to mortars? NO

Jump back to quoted post30 Jul 2019, 03:09 AMMazianni

Less damage than a howitzer and less mobile than a mortar.

And the only excuse i get from all this is: They are expensive! (like literally dirt cheap if you compare to the former howitzers or the damage they are able to do)

Jump back to quoted post30 Jul 2019, 03:09 AMMazianni

And yes, it is expensive...And yes, it is very fragile. (blablabla excuses)

I didnt even had to waste time to answer there. Ha. I think you are still missing the point, but its ok if you want to repeat yourself 1000 times if that makes you feel happy.

and, apparently, the only one you want USF to have, if you still believe anything you said in your first post in this thread

That shows poor reading skills...

You refuse to answer my questions because you have absolutely no real suggestions beyond an impulsive nerf to essentially remove a unit from the game. The fact your main complaint about the unit is now it's range, when everyone up to this point, and even yourself, have been talking about the autoattack capability, proves as much.

And again i have answered all of them, even when you deny the answer because you dont like it. I have to say its pretty common on allied fanboys this kind of attitude.

There's no argument to cherrypick. You have offered absolutely nothing constructive this entire thread.

But have you?

Pak howie is OP (means it does too much) nerfing it means it will do just what it should.

I wonder why you keep forgetting the USF tech rework overall buff...

Will be fun on 1vs1 with a 160 range howitzer parked on my base and firing at my opponent base.
Give all barrages 5 shells, cut its cd in half and yeah nerf the AA as much as you want.

As I said before, the same dudes will come here to cry that the pakhowi is OP has hell because it burst everything down and more when it get its heat shells.

Priest is already a mobile arty with 200dmg, 180 range and 3.67 lethal range (4 range 56dmg "mid")
SU Howitzer is 200dmg, 250 range, 3.61 lethal (same mid dmg as above)
Heat are 160dmg, 160 (is old vet 3 range), 2.38 lethal (3 range 24dmg mid)

It would be close to Sexton performance.

Priest is already a mobile arty with 200dmg, 180 range and 3.67 lethal range (4 range 56dmg "mid")
SU Howitzer is 200dmg, 250 range, 3.61 lethal (same mid dmg as above)
Heat are 160dmg, 160 (is old vet 3 range), 2.38 lethal (3 range 24dmg mid)

It would be close to Sexton performance.

Its stock and come much earlier than any of them. Anyway I'm not arguing against your proposal, just merely pointing out that the people who are complaining about are the one complaining about anything that about other factions and your change isn't going to make them happy.
Today its good on AA vs units, tomorrow it will be as good vs static targets, same whiners will come.

I didnt even had to waste time to answer there. Ha. I think you are still missing the point, but its ok if you want to repeat yourself 1000 times if that makes you feel happy.


That shows poor reading skills...

And again i have answered all of them, even when you deny the answer because you dont like it. I have to say its pretty common on allied fanboys this kind of attitude.


But have you?

Pak howie is OP (means it does too much) nerfing it means it will do just what it should.

I wonder why you keep forgetting the USF tech rework overall buff...

First of all, learn how to quote properly. (Edit: looks like you fixed your post, congrats)

Secondly, I won't repeat myself anymore, since you're proving far too dense to hold this conversation, especially now that you are outright denying saying what anyone here can check by going to page 2 of this thread. (And yes, still refuse to answer anything, something you also still deny.)

Pack howitzer costs about half as much as a lefh, and provides far less damage, less aoe and far less range. That's fine, and all offset by the fact it can actually autoattack, and rather efficiently. That has been the central point upon which all arguments of this thread have revolved around. You can claim it's OP all you want, it'll be your opinion and it doesn't look like I'd be able to convince you otherwise, sure, but it's exactly why the unit is where it is now, and if it gets changed significantly, something else will have to be or the unit simply won't be produced.

Tech rework overall buff was ages ago, and pretty much everyone decided it was a good idea. You can hold the opposite view there if you like, sure, but it also has little to do with the topic on hand; you're paying about the same for the teching towards the pack howitzer than you did before the rework, now split into two costs. Do you think the 5 fuel discounted in total in the rework should be added back to the company mechanized upgrade? That might be an interesting idea, but you don't even say as much, it's just another thing for you to complain about. It's not like you comment on any of the other price nerf proposals here.

Either make some constructive suggestions for the thread or stop posting here. Everyone else is actually trying to reach a compromise that pleases everyone.

If changes happen, we need to either give pak howitzer more survivability when hit by walking stuka or move the stuka to the flak base

If changes happen, we need to either give pak howitzer more survivability when walking stuka or move the stuka to the flank base.

Pack Howitzer is a team weapon and the Walking Stuka is supposed to counter team weapons. You can make the argument that it is too good in this regard, but that is the subject for a different thread.

Pack Howitzer is a team weapon and the Walking Stuka is supposed to counter team weapons. You can make the argument that it is too good in this regard, but that is the subject for a different thread.

Can you create a thread on the walking stuka overperforming early to midgame? The unit is much more bs than the pakhowitzer. I don't usually complain about units if the game is fairly even, but this unit needs to see some adjustments if the pak howitzer gets nerfed.

Its stock and come much earlier than any of them. Anyway I'm not arguing against your proposal, just merely pointing out that the people who are complaining about are the one complaining about anything that about other factions and your change isn't going to make them happy.
Today its good on AA vs units, tomorrow it will be as good vs static targets, same whiners will come.

Sure, but at least it will be consistent with how other similar units operate. All mortars were nerfed and the Pack Howie just escaped from it's grasps.
The lethal change basically had the same effect as with the first version on the Brummbar changes. The way they tried to nerf it was in the wrong direction.

On a non balance note, the FX on the explosion doesn't transmit well the impact on the shell when compare 1:1 with the 120mm.

Can you create a thread on the walking stuka overperforming early to midgame? The unit is much more bs than the pakhowitzer. I don't usually complain about units if the game is fairly even, but this unit needs to see some adjustments if the pak howitzer gets nerfed.

If Flak HQ can be split this is what i had in mind.

Reduce cost of Stuka to levels of MHT.
Make it so it fires on barrage only, the flame barrage. Would require balancing and testing.
Lockdown rockets as an upgrade once first half of Flak HQ is unlocked. Cost is equal to the difference between current and rework Stuka.

Sure, but at least it will be consistent with how other similar units operate. All mortars were nerfed and the Pack Howie just escaped from it's grasps.
The lethal change basically had the same effect as with the first version on the Brummbar changes. The way they tried to nerf it was in the wrong direction.

On a non balance note, the FX on the explosion doesn't transmit well the impact on the shell when compare 1:1 with the 120mm.

That's not a mortar.