Pak Howitzer needs adjustment

At least try to explain what any of this has to do with the pak howitzer?

Not only are you putting way too much reliance on the data (2-5% advantage apparently equals "dominance" in your world) but what could you possibly deduce from those graphs that would tell you what to do about the pak Howy? Not surprising you avoided that question...

I answered your question, mr i read nothing.

Pak howie does overperform vs ost team weapons, same as the last point i made.
Want more proof?

Oh wait, you ignored it.

and 2-5% over 5k games is worth something. you know...
and it get steeper on high skill games. but its not your case.

and 2-5% over 5k games is worth something. you know...
and it get steeper on high skill games. but its not your case.

Not when most of the games come before the latest patch...

I already support changing the Pak Howy, sorry to burst your bubble. I just don't agree the win-rates have anything to do with it, because they don't. We're talking about 1 unit on 1 faction, not the interaction of all 5. Stop the silliness

Not when most of the games come before the latest patch...

I already support changing the Pak Howy, sorry to burst your bubble. I just don't agree the win-rates have anything to do with it, because they don't. We're talking about 1 unit on 1 faction, not the interaction of all 5. Stop the silliness

You actually do agree that win rates have to do with it (Pak howies), since no one said such things. no one brought up that point before. And How relevant pak howies are to usf winrates.
Even though, anyone else would know winrate is a complex combination of factors. You just pointed out the least convenient for your argument.

A constant state of denial of real facts is very bad for a healthy game balance.

And a single patch would turn upside down the statistics? I would be very skeptical about it. New Pgrens did help OST openings, but Pak Howie, jacksons, scotts and other are still overperfing in the game, resulting in those solid 5% extra winrate.

You actually do, since no one said such things.
Anyone would know is a complex combination of factors. You just pointed out the least convenient for your argument.

Can you try to get a better grasp of English if you're gonna obsess over fighting with everything I post? This is basically illegible
_____

Give it a 6 man crew back, increase reload time on auto-fire and maybe reduce full-health kill radius. The 5 man change didn't make sense, but weakening auto-fire certainly does. It already happened to most indirect units

Can you try to get a better grasp of English if you're gonna obsess over fighting with everything I post? This is basically illegible

There is no need to attack anyone on their use of a probable 2nd language. If you run out of arguments, please refrain from directly insulting.
_____

Give it a 6 man crew back, increase reload time on auto-fire and maybe reduce full-health kill radius. The 5 man change didn't make sense, but weakening auto-fire certainly does. It already happened to most indirect units

I would change nothing else but its auto attack range and compensate mp investment accordingly, to lets say 580 mp.

There is no need to attack anyone on their use of a probable 2nd language. If you run out of arguments, please refrain from directly insulting.

He's been using that 2nd language to insult me for a good amount of time now, my "attack" is more than fair and had nothing to do with this thread. His entire argument had nothing to do with the thread, he just wanted to argue

I would change nothing else but its auto attack range and compensate mp investment accordingly, to lets say 580 mp.

580 mp for a shorter range pak Howy? I don't think that makes any sense, it was once 480 and it was even stronger than now (had larger radius, suppression on hit)

Give it a 6 man crew back, increase reload time on auto-fire and maybe reduce full-health kill radius. The 5 man change didn't make sense, but weakening auto-fire certainly does. It already happened to most indirect units

Reducing the auto attack is just going to make the unit useless. Most indirect units you're comparing with have strong barrage meant to be used. PakHowi have strong AA and poor barrage, you simply can't compare them since they are completely opposed in their design.

Reducing the auto attack is just going to make the unit useless. Most indirect units you're comparing with have strong barrage meant to be used. PakHowi have strong AA and poor barrage, you simply can't compare them since they are completely opposed in their design.

The Pak Howy happens to have 2 alternate barrages. The HEAT barrage and WP both of which are amazing, the regular one is still pretty good too

Also it's barrage range is 160. The 120mm mortar is the closest mortar at 100, the regular ones are 80. So saying it's not as good at barraging is completely false

The Pak Howy happens to have 2 alternate barrages. The HEAT barrage and WP both of which are amazing, the regular one is still pretty good too

Also it's barrage range is 160. The 120mm mortar is the closest mortar at 100, the regular ones are 80. So saying it's not as good at barraging is completely false

So let me know how you're suppose to vet your pakhowi in order to use them with a nerfed AA mode.

Barrage range is 160 because its suppose to do the trick as a howitzer, instead of comparing it with mortars, do it with the Ml-20 or Lefh. You know... there is a reason why it is called pak howitzer and not pak mortar

I know that people would just respond "then let's nerf/remove the AA and buff the barrage", yeah but I'm not sure they're going to like it either.

So let me know how you're suppose to vet your pakhowi in order to use them with a nerfed AA mode.

Barrage range is 160 because its suppose to do the trick as a howitzer, instead of comparing it with mortars, do it with the Ml-20 or Lefh. You know... there is a reason why it is called pak howitzer and not pak mortar

I know that people would just respond "then let's nerf/remove the AA and buff the barrage", yeah but I'm not sure they're going to like it either.

Right now it is way too potent as you just need to put it down, and its huge auto attack range does all the work for you. Wiping units that need to stand still to even fire or be effective, without any user input. This is the problem that needst to be fixed. Its barrage range can be the same, even increased if needed! Just reduce auto attack range and adjust price accordingly, to perhaps 580mp.

Right now it is way too potent as you just need to put it down, and its huge auto attack range does all the work for you. Wiping units that need to stand still to even fire or be effective, without any user input. This is the problem that needst to be fixed. Its barrage range can be the same, even increased if needed! Just reduce auto attack range and adjust price accordingly, to perhaps 580mp.

That "huge auto attack range" is the exact same 80 as any other regular mortar.
Also, let me point the insanity of your suggestion by reminding you that REGULAR HOWITZERS used to cost 600mp, so unless you want to buff it to regular howitzer level, you're suggestion is laughable.

Also, pack howi is supposed to fill the role of other factions rocket arty, NOT mortars, mortar fills the role of mortars.

Right now it is way too potent as you just need to put it down, and its huge auto attack range does all the work for you.

This is just wrong. Have you tried using it yourself? Seems to me you haven't.

Wiping units that need to stand still to even fire or be effective, without any user input.

You repeat the first thing you said but just in different words.

This is the problem that needst to be fixed. Its barrage range can be the same, even increased if needed! Just reduce auto attack range and adjust price accordingly, to perhaps 580mp.

As I said in the other topic, they are so easily countered. Same as Axis mortar spam or any turtling opponent, having a mobile army is the solution. Only thing is, you need to keep dat army mobile yourself.

also, your suggested solution is wrong. 580 mp for 1 unit that is basically a easy to kill / unretreatable mortar? No.

So let me know how you're suppose to vet your pakhowi in order to use them with a nerfed AA mode.

The same way as before? I'm not saying remove auto-attack, just weaken it. Increase the reload time a little, and maybe decrease full health kill radius.

You could increase it's overall splash radius as well so that it still distributes good damage but doesn't kill full health squads as easily. They have done that with multiple AOE weapons

The same way as before? I'm not saying remove auto-attack, just weaken it. Increase the reload time a little, and maybe decrease full health kill radius.

You could increase it's overall splash radius as well so that it still distributes good damage but doesn't kill full health squads as easily. They have done that with multiple AOE weapons

The pack howitzer can not kill full health squads. It'll do an absolute maximum damage of 68 in the near AOE iirc. Only the scott is still capable of actually killing models in one shot for whatever reason.

As I said in the other topic, they are so easily countered. Same as Axis mortar spam or any turtling opponent, having a mobile army is the solution. Only thing is, you need to keep dat army mobile yourself.

Only one Axis faction is capable of having a mobile army, the other is heavily based around team weapons and a 4 man mainline infantry squad that needs to stop to get good dps. You can't just built nothing but Pios and Pgrens whenever you go up against USF, and of course G43's are doctrinal.

The pack howitzer can not kill full health squads. It'll do an absolute maximum damage of 68 in the near AOE iirc. Only the scott is still capable of actually killing models in one shot for whatever reason.

Yeah looks like your right there. Still spreading it's damage out more evenly would be a good change IMO. Its near radius is larger than other indirect units

Also the HEAT barrage does 160 dmg so that is capable of full-health kills. I think in a decent radius as well, at least 2 if not more

The pack howitzer can not kill full health squads. It'll do an absolute maximum damage of 68 in the near AOE iirc. Only the scott is still capable of actually killing models in one shot for whatever reason.

The maximum dmg is still 80, because the damage drop off is immediately after it's impact zone This is how all indirect fire units work now.

The Scott deals 100dmg per shot and still have an 0HK radius.

I'll guess that if you manage to make a shell impact directly on a model, it would kill it from full health. But the smallest of deviation from dead center would deal 79dmg.

The maximum dmg is still 80, because the damage drop off is immediately after it's impact zone This is how all indirect fire units work now.

The Scott deals 100dmg per shot and still have an 0HK radius.

I'll guess that if you manage to make a shell impact directly on a model, it would kill it from full health. But the smallest of deviation from dead center would deal 79dmg.

I don't believe it can kill a squad, even given that caveat. One model yes, but there's a minimum spacing for infantry?

The same way as before? I'm not saying remove auto-attack, just weaken it. Increase the reload time a little, and maybe decrease full health kill radius.

You could increase it's overall splash radius as well so that it still distributes good damage but doesn't kill full health squads as easily. They have done that with multiple AOE weapons

The pakhowi already doesn't OS any full life squad so your first paragraph is out of subject, what you're proposing then isn't going to make its detractors happiest since it will be subject to kill more wounded models per shot. Low health squads are going to suffer much more from your change.

Again the pak howi cost the same as an elite squad and is perfectly and easily counterable by any kind of combat units, so I don't know why it shouldn't have the same killing power as such. From this reasonable point of view: or effectively you want to make it a real howitzer on barrage only and thus give it the firepower associated to it or leave it on AA mode as it is today. On both cases you'll meet people unhappy about it and just want it to be nerfed to oblivion.

The pakhowi already doesn't OS any full life squad so your first paragraph is out of subject, what you're proposing then isn't going to make its detractors happiest since it will be subject to kill more wounded models per shot. Low health squads are going to suffer much more from your change.

Again the pak howi cost the same as an elite squad and is perfectly and easily counterable by any kind of combat units, so I don't know why it shouldn't have the same killing power as such. From this reasonable point of view: or effectively you want to make it a real howitzer on barrage only and thus give it the firepower associated to it or leave it on AA mode as it is today. On both cases you'll meet people unhappy about it and just want it to be nerfed to oblivion.

This is essentially my take as well. Slow but consistent damage by autoattack or a much more useful barrage are the only way this unit stays effective.

Balance options, if we absolutely have to balance this shit:

1. Nerf/Remove AA, but make the barrage deadlier and/or cool down faster (more shells is not a solution, as this would only of practical use versus buildings like the OKW trucks. Imagine if the Zis-3 barrage was twice as long but did only half damage; nobody would use it despite the same theoretical damage output)

2. Jack the price up to 400~ or so but make no other adjustments to the unit itself; one pack howitzer isn't going to be killing squads unless the axis player is braindead, and this way two pack howitzers is an even bigger investment than it already is. Note that the price of this unit before the crew reduction was 380 or so and people didn't bitch about it nearly as much.

3. Minor changes like increased setup/teardown times to make it harder to evade call-in strikes/counterbarrage, autoattack kept more or less as is, maybe a slight price nerf, maybe a very slight scatter increase to autoattack if that gets touched at all.

4. Keep the pack howitzer exactly as it is, but maybe buff ostheer counterbarrage to make axis idf a more effective counter. Either way the panzerwerfer's counterbarrage range is way shorter than normal and should probably get buffed anyway.