So are they really nerfing the Churchill Tank?

Jump back to quoted post20 Jul 2019, 02:26 AMdistrofio

A single panther would not stop that from happening (A couple of stugs will). Thit shows that a panther is not efficient (and therefore not effective) vs churchills. Panthers are not hard counters. Braindead players comparisons are out of this scope please. Even when 1v1, a panther will have a hard time fighting off a churchill in tight spaces, but this case is very situational, like a flanked MG, meanwhile in open map snares and support units will kill any chasing panther. Loosing both units at best.
If a frontline is well defended vs AT (2 stugs, lots of ATG) is reasonable that a single churchill wont do, but there is no reason for churchills to be infalible either. Using artillery or flanking is the solution there.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jul 2019, 13:23 PMachpawel

Wow wow wow. I hope your calculations are correct. But what a tremendous piece of work

Anyway, chrchill is a bit too strong for ost imo. And it's not only due to repair speeds. Generally UK is pretty strong when against ost. And maybe the answer is to buff ost anti tank department slightly to deal with churchills. I also believe that stug is not the answer. You cant spend that much fuel and manpower ona units that wont help you against inf. As ost you are doomed then. Also firefly/jacskon/su85 will laugh at your stugs. It's just wrong tier at that stage of the game when churchills are around.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jul 2019, 14:23 PMHannibal

Thank you, I assume they are correct since the descriptions in the editor made sense to me.
I think we just slightly disagree. The Churchill is difficult to deal with, but I played it several times as Brits and I have to say it has quite some weaknesses, especially in smaller game modes where mobility matters. It needs a ton of support to not let it get snared and you're pretty much fixed to that point on the map with your main army, since relocating it takes some time. The latter is not a huge disadvantage in 3v3 and 4v4 since the map is just stuffed with units, but in 1v1 and 2v2 flanking is more prominent, so speed matters more.
I was mainly talking about 2v2 since I play that the most. Maybe that's where our difference comes from.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jul 2019, 14:37 PMachpawel

Could be. I play 1v1 alomst solely. I have problems with brits as I haven't played them in a year or more. Still they really seem a bit over the top.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jul 2019, 15:43 PMHannibal

Brits are strong, but (in my opinion) that's due to the IS and the bolster. I'd like to see the IS be similar to the grenadiers with different cover mechanics. Probably slightly stronger since they are more expensive and lack utility. Maybe buff their weapons, remove the bolster or just make the bolster work on the engineers (with reduced price as compensation). Then make the Bren be an MG42 cost- and stat-wise and have IS only have one weapon slot. Everything in a sensible way, but I always liked the idea that Brits actually play more like Ostheer, so the Axis face a different tactic than the "total offensive" of USF and SOV. Just like OKW plays more similar to the other two Allied factions than Ostheer.

But that would be another thread.
Maybe we can let this topic now die in piece, I think most of the arguments have been discussed.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jul 2019, 13:23 PMachpawel

Generally UK is pretty strong when against ost. And maybe the answer is to buff ost anti tank department slightly to deal with churchills. I also believe that stug is not the answer.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jul 2019, 16:36 PMKatitof

Well, there is your problem then.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jul 2019, 17:02 PMachpawel

I'll try playing UK for a while.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jul 2019, 17:16 PMKatitof

That's actually the best and fastest way to see how to counter a unit you struggle against.

Jump back to quoted post22 Jul 2019, 06:35 AMullumulu

In my understand a Hardcounter is mostly cheaper or maximal at the same price like the unit it should counter. A hardcounter CANT be expansiver..

it is like you say 180mp pio is Hardcounterd by 600mp unit. maybe it will kill it fast...but the it MUST KILL It because of tripple the price..if not...the 600mp unit is to weak/ pio too strong

Jump back to quoted post22 Jul 2019, 06:58 AMKatitof

Jagdtiger and Elephant confirmed to not be hardcounters to anything.

No.
A hardcounter is a unit(or combination of units in certain cases), which leaves opposing unit with no place to do much and doesn't allow them to efficiently fight back. Cost is only correlation, unless you believe Puma isn't hardcounter to lights or panther isn't a hardcounter to meds too.

Jump back to quoted post22 Jul 2019, 07:05 AMSeductiveCardbordBox

That definition exists in your head and literally nowhere else.

Jump back to quoted post22 Jul 2019, 07:10 AMullumulu

well...:

https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Hard_Counters_and_Soft_Counters

I mean..u could simple google this to not be so naive as you stand now ---

Jump back to quoted post22 Jul 2019, 07:23 AMSeductiveCardbordBox

Are you kidding.

From your own source

"...We prefer not to use these terms on this wiki. They are ambiguous and there are many edge cases..."

We're also not playing Starcraft, thank god.

CoH2 has never really reached an agreeable consensus on what defines a hard counter, but the common parlance use has never been based around cost. The Jagd and Ele are prime examples of tank hardcounters, and they have long been considered exactly that, which are literally the most expensive units in game.

Jump back to quoted post22 Jul 2019, 06:35 AMullumulu

In my understand a Hardcounter is mostly cheaper or maximal at the same price like the unit it should counter. A hardcounter CANT be expansiver..

it is like you say 180mp pio is Hardcounterd by 600mp unit. maybe it will kill it fast...but the it MUST KILL It because of tripple the price..if not...the 600mp unit is to weak/ pio too strong

Jump back to quoted post22 Jul 2019, 07:46 AMHannibal

That definition is way too easy. According to that, thr Brummbär would not hard counter infantry, since every infantry unit in the game is cheaper that it.
What you need to do is scale the units stats to the same cost. And even then you need to subjectively judge by the roles. An Elefant hard counters basically all vehicles. Yet I'm 100% sure that I can kill an Elefant with a Pershing or even with a T34 in a sole 1v1 situation due to the casemate nature of the Elefant. In a real scenario, you need to find the Elefant in a weak spot where you can flank it and then kill it with vehicles which it actually is supposed to hard counter.
Cost correction only works if you assume similar or realistic battlefield conditions (e.g. front to front shoot out etc)

Jump back to quoted post22 Jul 2019, 08:00 AMullumulu

thats why this TDs are only good counters/ or softcounter.../ counters.
Not HARDCOUNTERS. (once more: hardcounters means it will beat the unit in every situation and no lose possible: like a stone will ALWAYS lose to a paper.EVERYTIME. no lose possbile to the paper.)