How to counter Allies range, speed and mass in 4v4?

Some maps like lanzerth ambush and red ball and hill.

Allies start with infantry blob, then Usf can do calliope, rifles and pak/scott and jackson, the other do sherman blob and caliope. Sov mass guards with ptrs, and su85 and katsuya, Brit just do ther mg and mortar lockdown and call in 2 howies, before FF come to support. All using stock/mostly stock units.

As Wehr, i having trouble countering the pak/scott/kats/calliope taking out our position. And their sherman blobs comes in clearing up. Every time we try to use our Panthers, Tigers and Stug to chase after their shermans and scott, but inaccuracy on the move, TD behind and danger of snares, it was hopeless. Our infantry cannot handle guard and rifles blob, mg is useless in late game, even bunkers go down easily.

I feel the situation is unplayable. If panther blob is bad, please look at Allies range and speed, and how their med tanks can survive easily with such strat, or they can rebuild faster.

Some maps like lanzerth ambush and red ball and hill.

Allies start with infantry blob, then Usf can do calliope, rifles and pak/scott and jackson, the other do sherman blob and caliope. Sov mass guards with ptrs, and su85 and katsuya, Brit just do ther mg and mortar lockdown and call in 2 howies, before FF come to support. All using stock/mostly stock units.

As Wehr, i having trouble countering the pak/scott/kats/calliope taking out our position. And their sherman blobs comes in clearing up. Every time we try to use our Panthers, Tigers and Stug to chase after their shermans and scott, but inaccuracy on the move, TD behind and danger of snares, it was hopeless. Our infantry cannot handle guard and rifles blob, mg is useless in late game, even bunkers go down easily.

I feel the situation is unplayable. If panther blob is bad, please look at Allies range and speed, and how their med tanks can survive easily with such strat, or they can rebuild faster.

So, allies use heavy artillery to counter your mg/bunker spam, use medium/ai tanks to support infantry and cover their units from your tanks using tank destroyers? sound like combined arms to me
In other words, allies are coordinated, and between 3 factions use 13 differenct units and you complain you cannot Panther spam them to death? or lock down half the map by spamming bunkers XDDDD?
Also "allies start with blobs, then usf can do calliope", so I guess nothing happens inbetween?

Question is: where are your mortars, Leigs, 251 Stukas, JP4s, Pak 40, Brummbars, Shreck blobs, Ostwinds, flame 251, LEFHs, Elefants, JTs and Pak43s? mines? panzerwerfers? Raks?

Played against this the other day and its incredibly stupid to play against. Although it is beatable, it doesn't make it fun or easy to play against. Problem is that if you don't catch this turtle early it can be very difficult to take down. USF will blob and reinforce with bunker positions, UKF goes pit with MGs, and soviets are blobbing with USF.

As OST you either need to catch it early and go flametrack, or you need to go probably 3x mortar covered by MGs and have your teammates aid in protecting your mortars. Because there isn't a great way other than brute forcing on maps like red ball. That or pray you go lategame, get an elephant and just delete the entirity of their armies.

It's beatable, but you need somewhat coordinated teammates, and you need to lean heavily into "OP Meta" units/builds. Interestingly, I've found that the more OST players you have, the better; anything more than 1 OKW player drastically lowers your win chance, with 3x OKW being basically an instant loss (but maybe that's just me).

Since maps like Redball basically turn into 2x 2v2 (top and bottom 'lanes'), you'll want to coordinate with the other player in your lane. For docs, the new 'Strategic Reserves' AGren/Tiger Ace commander is a pretty good choice, and extremely effective when backed up by another player not using it; Jaeger Armor and Storm are usually my other 2 choices in 4v4. Let's call the SR-doc player 1 and JA/S doc player 2.

Player 1 should be getting Agrens, then PGrens, then T3 for an Ostwind or P4J - skipping T1/2 is important. Realistically, only one of those PGrens will need schrecks, since player 1 is going to do most of the AI work. Player 2 should do a fairly normal T1/2/3 build, since you'll need AT/Mortars; and they'll be covering most of the early AT with a PAK.

If player 2 is going JA-doc, try to not spend a ton of fuel, since an early elefant is always helpful. Note that player 2 should only pick storm if the allied players are playing defensively, or have a UKF-emplacement player. Additionally, always check the opponents docs in the loading screen, and make sure they don't have a ton of recon. The LeFH, the main reason for this doc in 4v4, is pointless if they do.

From there, it's just coordination. Player 2 needs to smoke MGs for player 1 and deal long-range DPS with their LMG-Grens. Player 1 needs to be constantly aggressive and force squads to retreat, while also keeping them away from Player 2's weapon crews. Also, make sure to mine your flanks, that break in the hedgerows on Redball is a pretty common one for top-right starting players.

Once Player 1 hits T3, rush out a P4J or ostwind (P4 if there's mediums, Ostwind if not) and use it in combination with your AI (and your teammates AT, if needed). Realistically, if rushed, the allied players shouldn't have any mediums or TDs for at least a minute or two (provided they have the same fuel income), so use that time to push forward. Again, player 2 should be playing "normally" and supporting with MGs, grens and AT.

Hopefully neither of you will lose many/any tanks, and will get out a TigerAce/Elefant quickly, at which point you should be able to take most of the map (~20 minutes in).

So, allies use heavy artillery to counter your mg/bunker spam, use medium/ai tanks to support infantry and cover their units from your tanks using tank destroyers? sound like combined arms to me
In other words, allies are coordinated, and between 3 factions use 13 differenct units and you complain you cannot Panther spam them to death? or lock down half the map by spamming bunkers XDDDD?
Also "allies start with blobs, then usf can do calliope", so I guess nothing happens inbetween?

Question is: where are your mortars, Leigs, 251 Stukas, JP4s, Pak 40, Brummbars, Shreck blobs, Ostwinds, flame 251, LEFHs, Elefants, JTs and Pak43s? mines? panzerwerfers? Raks?

All support/static weapons wont work against this. I think Sherman outnumber panther 3:1, 2 stugs cant beat a single ff/su85/jackson.

Granted it is 4v4, but i find this getting outta hand with the ptrs guards and calliope/bulldoser doc. Lots of arty

As per title, allies mass and speed are really stronk now.

Im thinking of looking at reduce td range 60 to 55.
Scott pop needs to go up.

Axis complaining about 4v4? lol

Im sorry, but the existence of the lategame b̶a̶n̶e̶b̶l̶a̶d̶e Jagdtiger/Elefant/KT pretty much guarantees Axis will have a huge advantage in most 4v4 matches

Axis complaining about 4v4? lol

Im sorry, but the existence of the lategame b̶a̶n̶e̶b̶l̶a̶d̶e Jagdtiger/Elefant/KT pretty much guarantees Axis will have a huge advantage in most 4v4 matches

https://www.coh2.org/news/92866/automatch-stats-factions-teams-and-maps

https://www.coh2.org/news/92866/automatch-stats-factions-teams-and-maps

Wow, that's way better (more even) than I would have guessed, tbh.

Looking at the RT anyway, since AT is a whole different ballgame (but even that is only a 5.3 Percentage Point difference and ofc it's to UKF).

Overall, this... is good.

Also, big ups to Siphon X and the others who worked on it.

Allies will just naturally be a little better in team games because they have a whole extra faction. In that chart above you can see it clearly, random teams are on the left and arranged teams are on the right. With arranged teams that come into a game with a plan having more options is a natural advantage.

It's not really that bad, just don't take 4v4 so seriously. In the future this is avoided by Lelic not having an uneven number of factions.

Allied blob: exists
Stuka zu fuβ: With all 6 rockets I could simply snap my fingers and they would all cease to exist. I call that: balance.

Allies will just naturally be a little better in team games because they have a whole extra faction. In that chart above you can see it clearly, random teams are on the left and arranged teams are on the right. With arranged teams that come into a game with a plan having more options is a natural advantage.

It's not really that bad, just don't take 4v4 so seriously. In the future this is avoided by Lelic not having an uneven number of factions.

While I somewhat agree with that, I don't think that can really explain the entire gap. The other charts showing win percentages by faction and side show that there is something really strange going on in the top 25% 4v4 RT (not just AT).



If it was entirely on having an extra faction, that gap should be somewhat consistent. A 5-8% win rate advantage is pretty big compared to the other modes, so it might be worthwhile look into allied scaling a bit more, since it seems to get a bit too powerful in team-games (3v3 has the same problem to a lesser degree).

note: two explanations for this could be that the average allied player is noticeably more skilled, or there are a noticeably higher number of axis players.

EDIT: NVM, siphon already answered my curiosity in the other thread:

https://www.coh2.org/news/92866/automatch-stats-factions-teams-and-maps/post/756635

Also, this part helps clarify regarding the 4v4:

If we compare allied to axis win percentages we find that they are very similar for 30+% ladder bins. Win percentages are less balanced for the top 30% of players, though in particular for 3v3 and 4v4 where allies fare far better than axis. However, in these game modes more ATs and good random players queue as allies which is expected to skew win percentages significantly.

Anyway, I think anyone who wants to comment on the graphs should read Siphon's conclusions (neatly written in bullet points) before jumping to conclusions.

The impression I'm left with is that things are much better off than one may intuit when just playing.

Played against this the other day and its incredibly stupid to play against. Although it is beatable, it doesn't make it fun or easy to play against. Problem is that if you don't catch this turtle early it can be very difficult to take down. USF will blob and reinforce with bunker positions, UKF goes pit with MGs, and soviets are blobbing with USF.

As OST you either need to catch it early and go flametrack, or you need to go probably 3x mortar covered by MGs and have your teammates aid in protecting your mortars. Because there isn't a great way other than brute forcing on maps like red ball. That or pray you go lategame, get an elephant and just delete the entirity of their armies.

Arty and elefants might help too. Can't kill elefants with at guns or TDs and they've got enough range to be shooting at autofiring scotts and mortar pits pretty easily too. Arty is nice for turtling (especially if you can find forward retreat points). As long as you can keep that stuff safe you can probably just out turtle them at that point.

Thanks for the graphs.
Imo my mid-low level but experienced plays, Axis is hamstrung by costs/perf, especially wehr.

When 4v4 late games, it doesnt matter if you have elefant or panthers, as you are facing multiples 60 range shots from everywhere, your armor dont work against their speed and masses. Elefant take 1 shot, and gets hit by 3-4 shots from everywhere.
You are facing tons of arty off map, multiple upgraded infantry that shreds your static grens.

Hence in my suggestion is to buff panther vet armor as previous topic, make it scale against med tanks for its costs. And make Usf tanks eat up more popcap.

Elefants have enough range that they shouldn't be getting shot at. They self spot with spotting scopes too.

Close air support commander is really fun for arty heavy enemies. Especially priest/sexton or Katy.

Hull down your Panthers with Festung Armor, it's a long kept secret. You can get the Command Panzer 4 next to it to 1v2 Jacksons (1600 HP and 62,5 range). The damage reduction also helps with Allied arty one-shotting you. Otherwise, get a Pwerfer if your opponent spams AT guns out of desperation.

Hull down panthers you say

IL-2 pilots learn this one weird trick. Festung commanders hate them!

Hull down panthers you say

IL-2 pilots learn this one weird trick. Festung commanders hate them!

You can instantly cancel it and avoid the bombs though. 200 muni wasted!