USF Rifle Company Rework

What if, instead of 6-man rifles, you could get a 6-man LT or Captain? They're already special riflemen limited to 1 each, so they could gain abilities that would be too strong on mainline units.

Like this idea: Show Spoiler

So, replace rifleman flares with "Forward Observers". 3CP upgrade for LT/Captain, but only 1 at a time. Adds a (cheaper) flare ability, a Pathfinder, and an artillery ability (I&R Pathfinders, Major? Not sure). Takes up a weapon slot.

Just do that, buff Fire Up (lower cost or no exhaustion), and the commander is good, I think.

Interesting idea, but I don’t think it fits the theme of Rifle Company.

The Veteran Sergeant is intended to be a single doctrine only upgrade for your basic infantry, much like the Veteran Squad Leader upgrade that is available to German Infantry Doctrine only. Like the VSL, the Veteran Sergeant is intended to add durability to the squad and a little bit of firepower, but not as much firepower as other upgrades. So if you want more durable Riflemen, go Rifle Company for the Sergeant. If you want more firepower, go infantry or tactical support and get the M1919A6 on your Riflemen, or if you want moving firepower, you get double BARs.

The Sergeant idea is not just to give out 6 man rifle squads for the sake of having bigger squads, it’s intent is to provide USF players with a choice to invest munitions into your core infantry in three distinct ways for different purposes and play styles.

Grenadier LMG42 or Riflemen M1919A6: long range, stationary firepower.
Grenadier G43s or Riflemen BARs: mid range, mobile firepower.
Grenadier VSL or Riflemen Veteran Sergeant: added man and added durability, but less added firepower compared to G43s/BARs/MG42/M1919A6

Your forward observer idea sounds really cool, but I think it fits better with Tactical Support, or Recon Support or maybe a future Commander.

Yes because:
RE in fighting position fire 2 grenades
RE can suppress
RE can be spammed

If Rifle grenade bar is problem it could be simply be changed to take all weapon slots.

Fighting position thing is weird.
RE can pay munitions to die faster.
RE can be spammed marginally faster than riflemen for being a lot worse in any situation other than having 1919s, in which case they'll never have riflegrenade launchers outside of fighting positions.

I personally would meld flares and m1919 as "support equipment" ability and put rifle field defenses with sprint. But melding them might just make it powercreep.

I personally would meld flares and m1919 as "support equipment" ability and put rifle field defenses with sprint. But melding them might just make it powercreep.

I don’t think Rifle Company should get M1919A6s. That goes against the concept of Rifle Company being about Riflemen maneuvering and shooting. It’s also just contributes to LMG blobbing that’s already very prevalent in team games and if you bundled LMGs with anything then it would also have to be bundled in the other commanders that have them.

Rifle Company should have more rifles, not LMGs.

Rifle Company barely actually helps the thing it's named after, Riflemen.

You get the M4A3E8 "Easy Eight" Sherman, that's pretty good I guess but isn't really related to Riflemen. You get M2 Flamethrowers for Rear Echelon squads(?), again, not Riflemen. Wow, Riflemen do get a discount sprint ability and flares. Of which, flares are the only somewhat useful thing for Riflemen (sprint itself would be too, but with the exhaustion debuff, it isn't really worthwhile). Oh yeah, and a random Wehrmacht commander even gets a better sprint ability for all infantry, and the ability to upgrade Grenadiers with better weapons.
Show Spoiler
Now let's get back to Rifle Company. You get an artillery barrage, which granted is actually pretty good (but cannot kill models, only injure to instant kill levels of HP). Honestly, there's so many better things can could go here to make it more Riflemen focused.
Rifle Company is currently a pretty awful commander. I think it should be adjusted to something along these lines (taken from my commander submission — just ignore the commander name and picture):



Theme:
Riflemen upgradability (unique and new upgrades)

Unit and Ability Roster
Show Spoiler


Strategies and Rational
Show Spoiler

Additional Context
Show Spoiler
___________________________
Notes:
Show Spoiler

Rifle Company barely actually helps the thing it's named after, Riflemen.

You get the M4A3E8 "Easy Eight" Sherman, that's pretty good I guess but isn't really related to Riflemen. You get M2 Flamethrowers for Rear Echelon squads(?), again, not Riflemen. Wow, Riflemen do get a discount sprint ability and flares. Of which, flares are the only somewhat useful thing for Riflemen (sprint itself would be too, but with the exhaustion debuff, it isn't really worthwhile). Oh yeah, and a random Wehrmacht commander even gets a better sprint ability for all infantry, and the ability to upgrade Grenadiers with better weapons.
Show Spoiler

Now let's get back to Rifle Company. You get an artillery barrage, which granted is actually pretty good (but cannot kill models, only injure to instant kill levels of HP). Honestly, there's so many better things can could go here to make it more Riflemen focused.
Rifle Company is currently a pretty awful commander. I think it should be adjusted to something along these lines (taken from my commander submission — just ignore the commander name and picture):

USF — Riflemen Support Company

Theme:
Riflemen upgradability (unique and new upgrades)

Unit and Ability Roster
Show Spoiler

Strategies and Rational
Show Spoiler

Additional Context
Show Spoiler

___________________________
Notes:
Show Spoiler

I like the overall commander ideas, but I think being able to get 3 Thompsons on a 6 man rifle squad who also gets smoke and frags and a snare might be a bit much...
Also I'd rather the e8 over the m10. I don't wanna see units disappear if we can help it and the e8 is actually a really great tank (seriously compare its stats to the t34/85 and youll see if anything the e8 is OP...) it's just the rest of the commander being kinda meh.

I like the overall commander ideas, but I think being able to get 3 Thompsons on a 6 man rifle squad who also gets smoke and frags and a snare might be a bit much...

Slot 3: 2 CP — Veteran Squad Leaders (RIFLEMEN UNIT UPGRADE, 60 MUNITIONS, ONLY CAN BE UPGRADED ONCE PER SQUAD (I.E. NO 7 MAN RIFLEMEN SQUADS), ADDS 1 POP. CAP TO EACH SQUAD WHICH UPGRADES TO THIS UPGRADE)
Almost identical to the Veteran Squad Leader upgrade on the German Infantry Doctrine on the Wehrmacht faction. The boosts it gives should be slightly reduced compared to the Wehrmacht version. This should take up one single weapon slot space too (i.e. can still pickup one weapon). The squad leader should be the Lieutenant/Captain model, with a M1A1 Thompson or M1 Garand as a weapon (M1A1 Thompson preferably).

I'd only prefer the M1A1 Thompson just because it's more realistic, but the M1 Garand would be okay too.

Also I'd rather the e8 over the m10. I don't wanna see units disappear if we can help it and the e8 is actually a really great tank (seriously compare its stats to the t34/85 and youll see if anything the e8 is OP...) it's just the rest of the commander being kinda meh.

I personally find the M10 to be overall more useful. The ability to crush infantry entities, a good 76mm (which can kind of penetrate the front of a Pzkpfw. V Panther) and it's way cheaper and less pop. cap. to field. I was also afraid the M4A3E8 would make the commander a bit too good too (because yeah, the M4A3E8 is still a technically better vehicle than the M10).

Or
get rid of the dozer upgrade for Shermans
move Sherman 105 to Rifle company as an infatry support tank or a dual role indirect/direct fire tank
move easy8 to Armor

Or
get rid of the dozer upgrade for Shermans
move Sherman 105 to Rifle company as an infatry support tank or a dual role indirect/direct fire tank
move easy8 to Armor

You'll already have so many BAR'ed riflemen that having bulldozer would be kinda weird though. I think e8 is fine where it is and currently it's the only really great thing in the commander at all (flamers and WP are nice, but I wouldn't forgo elite infantry for just them alone or anything). Dozer sherman fits in armor because it synergizes with M10s, while e8 and m10s is a weird and awkward overlapping combination. Just because it's called "armor" company doesn't mean it has to be the only company with good armor.

I'd only prefer the M1A1 Thompson just because it's more realistic, but the M1 Garand would be okay too.

Look up the actual TO&E of a US rifle squad. Thompsons are decidedly less realistic than an M1 Garand.

In fact, US infantry platoons had only four small arms organic to them. Each squad would have one BAR, the Platoon Commander (a Lieutenant) got an M1 Carbine and there was also one scoped M1903A4 Springfield “Sniper Rifle” in the platoon, but it was assigned when needed and was not always even used. The rest of the men got M1 Garands.

So in total a US infantry platoon would have:

41 Men
37 M1 Garands
3 BARs
1 M1 Carbine
1 M1903A4 Sniper Rifle

It should however be noted that each company had extra special weapons that were handed out as needed. This included 6 extra BARs, 6 Thompsons and 5 Bazookas. Most of the BARs were distributed evenly throughout the platoons so each platoon would usually have 2 BARs per squad in two squads and one in the third squad. The Bazookas tended to be kept on the rear or assigned to defensive points and the Thompsons tended to go unused except in specific assaults or by guys who just really wanted one.

Below are some of my sources. I highly recommend the book in the second link to anyone interested in what WWII was actually like for the grunts with the guns in respect to small arms.

https://web.archive.org/web/20100131043837/http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/toe/USInfantry/rifle_company.htm

https://www.amazon.com/Infantry-Weapons-Combat-Personal-Experiences/dp/1888722150

Look up the actual TO&E of a US rifle squad. Thompsons are decidedly less realistic than an M1 Garand

Considering we're using the Lieutenant and/or Captain model, it is perfectly realistic for a Lieutenant or Captain to be carrying a M1A1 Thompson submachine gun (or M1 Carbine).

Slot 3: 2 CP — Veteran Squad Leaders (RIFLEMEN UNIT UPGRADE, 60 MUNITIONS, ONLY CAN BE UPGRADED ONCE PER SQUAD (I.E. NO 7 MAN RIFLEMEN SQUADS), ADDS 1 POP. CAP TO EACH SQUAD WHICH UPGRADES TO THIS UPGRADE)
Almost identical to the Veteran Squad Leader upgrade on the German Infantry Doctrine on the Wehrmacht faction. The boosts it gives should be slightly reduced compared to the Wehrmacht version. This should take up one single weapon slot space too (i.e. can still pickup one weapon). The squad leader should be the Lieutenant/Captain model, with a M1A1 Thompson or M1 Garand as a weapon (M1A1 Thompson preferably).

M1A1 Thompson submachine guns were issued (as were M1 Carbines) to non-commissioned and commissioned officers.

During the war the Thompson was a special-purpose weapon carried by officers and noncommissioned officers, armor crews, scouts, paratroopers, commandos and rangers, particularly
for patrols, ambushes, and fighting in built up areas.
https://history.army.mil/html/museums/uniforms/survey_uwa.pdf

M1 Garands? Eh, not so much. I think there's just a bit of miscommunication. I meant they'd be using what a Lieutenant/Captain would actually use, not the proper squad leaders, as we're using those models.

Considering we're using the Lieutenant and/or Captain model, it is perfectly realistic for a Lieutenant or Captain to be carrying a M1A1 Thompson submachine gun (or M1 Carbine).


M1A1 Thompson submachine guns were issued (as were M1 Carbines) to non-commissioned and commissioned officers.


M1 Garands? Eh, not so much. I think there's just a bit of miscommunication. I meant they'd be using what a Lieutenant/Captain would actually use, not the proper squad leaders, as we're using those models.

I’m not saying it didn’t happen, I’m just saying that in the official table of organization for a Rifle Company, the squad leaders were in fact issued M1 Garands. I also mentioned the six extra Thompsons maintained at the Company level that could be issued out as needed or wanted.

So yes, some NCOs acquired Carbines and Thompsons sometimes, but the correct TO weapon was an M1 Garand and the only person in the platoon with a Carbine as his TO weapon was the Platoon Leader (a Lieutenant) himself. Not a single person in the Rifle Company was issued a Thompson as their TO weapon, so your claim that Thompsons were more common than M1 Garands in the hands of squad leaders supposes that not only did the Company have more Thompsons than they did (6 in real life), but individuals were also able to disregard the official TO more often than not. In order to give every squad leader, platoon leader and the company commander a Thompson, the company would have needed to have 13 Thompsons total when they only had 6.

Additionally, while going against the TO did happen, it was not the norm. In my 9 years in the Marines I have seen the TO ignored exactly one time and that was when I requested that one of my Marines be issued an M4 carbine instead of his TO weapon because he was too short to handle an M16A4.

But most importantly, giving every in game Riflemen squad a 6th man and a Thompson or two plus a BAR from the weapon racks would be insanely OP and bad for gameplay.

So in closing, Thompsons on Riflemen squad leaders is bad for gameplay, bad for balance, and not historically accurate either.

Give the E8 white phosphorus shells in addition to its lackluster main gun shells.

Give it an M3 half track (something that should be a stock unit for USF anyway).

Give the E8 white phosphorus shells in addition to its lackluster main gun shells.

Give it an M3 half track (something that should be a stock unit for USF anyway).

Halftrack sounds like it might synergies well with Riflemen, but it’s also in several other doctrines, so that would make it too similar to Mechanized Company.

I disagree with you about the Easy Eight. I think the Easy Eight is fine, it’s very powerful against other tanks and is good against infantry with its coaxial and bow mounted MGs plus the .50 cal.

Pound for pound, the Easy Eight may be the best allied medium tank overall.

Halftrack sounds like it might synergies well with Riflemen, but it’s also in several other doctrines, so that would make it too similar to Mechanized Company.

I disagree with you about the Easy Eight. I think the Easy Eight is fine, it’s very powerful against other tanks and is good against infantry with its coaxial and bow mounted MGs plus the .50 cal.

Pound for pound, the Easy Eight may be the best allied medium tank overall.

The Easy Eight is a good tank even as it is. The problem is the rest of the doctrine. Rather than worrying about historical accuracy, think about what would make this commander good enough that you would put it in your loadout, without making it so OP that it would just get nerfed in the next patch.

Fire Up is easily the worst ability. Simply eliminate it.
Smoke and flamethrowers have already been removed from riflemen once. Any proposal to add them back is a non-starter.

This commander could be turned into a good commander for city fighting.

Ability 1: Keep Flamethrowers
Ability 2: Riflemen assault package - Thompsons like Para's get, plus the OKW infiltration grenades
Ability 3: Either keep Riflemen flares or add a mutually exclusive observation package to riflemen which gives them a scoped rifle and acts like a G43 upgrade.
Ability 4: Replace White Phos with the Time on Target offmap from Infantry company
Ability 5: Keep Easy Eight

Rather than worrying about historical accuracy....

This commander could be turned into a good commander for city fighting.

Ability 1: Keep Flamethrowers
Ability 2: Riflemen assault package - Thompsons like Para's get, plus the OKW infiltration grenades
Ability 3: Either keep Riflemen flares or add a mutually exclusive observation package to riflemen which gives them a scoped rifle and acts like a G43 upgrade.
Ability 4: Replace White Phos with the Time on Target offmap from Infantry company
Ability 5: Keep Easy Eight

1. Specifically about the historical accuracy thing, I really only went off on that because that other guy was wrong about Thompsons being MORE historically accurate. If they’re better for gameplay that’s great, but in this case they were worse for gameplay and can’t be defended by his inaccurate historical accuracy claim.

That aside, your suggestion is pretty good, but I would say that it has a lot of overlap with Mechanized Company.

Rifle Company should have some sort of buff for Riflemen that is unique to it, but doesn’t fundamentally change the role of Riflemen as a medium range generalist. That’s why I suggested the Veteran Sergeant upgrade with the M1 Carbine. It would make Riflemen better at their intended role of frontline combatant, but not just be some flat DPS boost. Hence the 6th man with a carbine. Thompsons on Riflemen would be too much like Cavalry Riflemen and the Easy Eight is already quite similar to the 76mm Sherman, so it’s best to keep Mechanized Company similarities to a minimum.

In my mind, Rifle Company should offer things to USF that other factions get non-doctrinally, but not gift them with anything too OP. The real basic US companies were called Rifle Companies, so I think the generalist nature of this name sharing should be reflected by the doctrine being very much a general purpose doctrine that fills gaps in the USF roster, but doesn’t do anything better than the more specialized USF doctrines.

Flamethrowers on REs is good, it adds a flamethrower USF was missing to its engineer unit.
Riflemen field defenses is good, it adds basic general purpose mines that USF was missing plus sandbags they were missing too.
6 man Riflemen is good, it adds durability to Riflemen without adding too much firepower. All other factions now have a way to boost their basic infantry unit up one man via either a doctrinal ability (WM 5 man Grenadiers and OKW 6 man PanzerFussiliers) or via a non doctrinal tech (5 man Tommies and 7 man Conscripts). None of these “+1” squads are super OP, but all are good and add durability to basic squads.
The WP barrage is good, but I’m open to see it changed or tweaked.
The Riflemen flare and sprint abilities are weak and I’m very open to see them combined with another ability ( like my Veteran Sergeant proposal), simply combined together in order to add another ability (like rifleman field defenses) or removed and replaced altogether.
The Easy Eight fits this same theme of being a good generalist, but it’s an OP specialist either. It’s better in every way than the stock M4A3 Sherman, except it lacks the HE shells, which in a way makes it more like other factions stock mainline medium tanks.

Give the E8 white phosphorus shells in addition to its lackluster main gun shells.

Give it an M3 half track (something that should be a stock unit for USF anyway).

M3 is useless unit...

That aside, your suggestion is pretty good, but I would say that it has a lot of overlap with Mechanized Company.

Rifle Company should have some sort of buff for Riflemen that is unique to it, but doesn’t fundamentally change the role of Riflemen as a medium range generalist. That’s why I suggested the Veteran Sergeant upgrade with the M1 Carbine. It would make Riflemen better at their intended role of frontline combatant, but not just be some flat DPS boost. Hence the 6th man with a carbine. Thompsons on Riflemen would be too much like Cavalry Riflemen and the Easy Eight is already quite similar to the 76mm Sherman, so it’s best to keep Mechanized Company similarities to a minimum.

In my mind, Rifle Company should offer things to USF that other factions get non-doctrinally, but not gift them with anything too OP. ...

I agree, after thinking about it a bit more, how about this:

Ability 1: Keep Flamethrowers
Ability 2: Riflemen upgrades - Give them a choice of three mutually exclusive upgrades like Tommies get:
a) Thompsons with a 6th man, with the Thompsons taking either one or two slots, plus the OKW infiltration grenades b) an observation package to riflemen which gives them a scoped rifle, better sight, and a sixth man (basically the exact same upgrade as the Fusiliers get) or c) your suggestion of a vet sergeant.
Ability 3: Keep White Phos
Ability 4: Add Time on Target offmap from Infantry company (or better yet the old Mechanized one)
Ability 5: Keep Easy Eight

This would allow a player to adapt Rifles to any situation. One decent offmap, one good offmap, and the Easy Eight would keep the doctrine centered around Rifles with support as needed. I'm always short on munis as USF so the offmaps would have to be used sparingly, which is also okay.

Maybe RE flamethrower bundle with RM flare will better？It will help other commander too

Ability 2: Riflemen upgrades - Give them a choice of three mutually exclusive upgrades like Tommies get:
a) Thompsons with a 6th man, with the Thompsons taking either one or two slots, plus the OKW infiltration grenades b) an observation package to riflemen which gives them a scoped rifle, better sight, and a sixth man (basically the exact same upgrade as the Fusiliers get) or c) your suggestion of a vet sergeant.

I disagree with having multiple abilities in general as Riflemen already have four upgrades for various things in other doctrines or via tech. BARs give you mobile mid range firepower which parallels G43s or StGs as a general firepower upgrade. They get M1919A6s which is like all other LMGs for long range firepower. They also can get Bazookas for AT variety and grenades fir extra CQB strength. An SMG upgrade makes them too much like Cavalry Riflemen or Rangers or Paratroopers. USF also already had Pathfinders as the long range, high sight scoped rifle squad.

What I’m saying is that if Riflemen get a doctrinally specific upgrade it needs to stand out as different. Once again, that’s why I suggested the Veteran Sergeant upgrade as already described. It gives the utility of sprint and flares already in the doctrine, but restricts it to squads with the upgrade and it also adds extra recurved accuracy buffs and an extra man for better durability. The extra durability is the only kind of upgrade Riflemen can’t get as a unit and one USF lacks as a faction. It also fits the theme of supporting Riflemen by making them better in general, but without making them too specialized or like another unit.