Move Conscripts 7th man from t4 to t3?

AS mirage said cons are only supposed to be UtIlIty not potent mainline because reasons..but who would have guessed 280mp fusiliers most likely with weapon upgrades beat 240mp units? or 300mp vs 240mp? weird!

Also sweepers are your friend and kiting. seems mostly like a l2p issue

Conscripts cost far more than fusiliers and volks when you factor in their upgrades. They still lose to them anynway.
"Utility" is not an argument, Volks have sangbags, snare and insta-flamenade without any upgrades. Thats already far more than Cons have for just 10 more MP

Conscripts cost far more than fusiliers and volks when you factor in their upgrades. They still lose to them anynway.
"Utility" is not an argument, Volks have sangbags, snare and insta-flamenade without any upgrades. Thats already far more than Cons have for just 10 more MP

no thye pay more for weapons, and their cost for nades and at nades comes with tech (15 fu 100 mp x truck)and pfusilier are doctrinal (do u pay shock nades ?)

As i already told, upgrade in T4 don't get to player enough profit. It's absolutely don't change early and midgame (the most valuable parts of game, where if will be you downside, you lategame also be weaker). You know in Starcraft 2 there are 2 units with 2 distincts ways to upgrades: zerglings and marines. Zerglings weak in start and could get speed ugrade in earlygame, but in lategame you could make expensive upgrade and they get huge DPS boost. Marines become stronger from early game to lategame while getting all their main upgrades (combat drugs and shields) and upgrades for armor and weapon. What we have in cons? Early game upgrades for main utility abilities (molotovs and snares) and lategame upgrade that don't make from them terminators, it's also don't give them new abilities that could drastically change their gameplay. Cons still the same - usefull only in doctrines with ppsh.
I already told that 3 times IRC, if we want to make from them utility unit, we must increase their utility, not combat stats. For tough combat SU have stock penals.

1. Decreased time to reinforce when T2 building is build.
2. Decreased to 16 MP cost of reinforce when medic station is made.
3. Faster sandbag building instead flare mine.

No need 7-th man and cover bonus. SU get 2 viable openings - cheap to maintain cons or more expensive penals. Decreased cost to maintain make Merge more revarding for player, faster sandbag will help with cover, faster reinforcing will help with field presence.

no thye pay more for weapons, and their cost for nades and at nades comes with tech (15 fu 100 mp x truck)and pfusilier are doctrinal (do u pay shock nades ?)

Cost of snare and flame nade does not come with tech, Cons do not get their utility unless they pay for it, paying for it does not even increase their raw performance but merely adds utility volks and grens get by default. Hence "utility" argument is retarded

Cost of snare and flame nade does not come with tech, Cons do not get their utility unless they pay for it, paying for it does not even increase their raw performance but merely adds utility volks and grens get by default. Hence "utility" argument is retarded

no they do, why do think they cost ? the AXIS tax ? cause if'ts not allied it gotta be bad ?

no they do, why do think they cost ? the AXIS tax ? cause if'ts not allied it gotta be bad ?

Hypothetically speaking, if OKW had the flame nade + faust tech separated from normal teching and had it be a standalone upgrade from HQ for MP/Fuel, how much would they cost and how much cheaper would their tech buildings be?

Cuz Soviets pay 125 MP and 10 fuel, IIRC for each.

So would OKW buildings be 250MP/20 fuel cheaper (cumulatively, not that much cheaper each)?

Or is the cost of the tech subsidized by the cost of making the truck in the first place?

I'd like to see what it would look like, TBH, because I think there's an argument to be made that even if the cost of the grenade+faust is covered by the cost of teching, it may be better overall to separate them and allow people to either 1) ignore those upgrades to rush teching or 2) make the decision and put more macro tax on their build order/timing.

The tech vs sidegrade unlock when talking about volks and cons doesn't work because volks teching to unlock their shit unlocks units and abilities. It's impossible to put a direct value on that. Teching up for OKW unlocks a tier full of units, the mg34, Sturm Shreks and volks whole kit which includes a better molotov, a snare and a weapon upgrade. Cons upgrades provide ONLY things for cons so it is directly applicable to the cost of cons. You can ignore volks entirely and teching up still gives you things. It's not a waste. Unlock con upgrades without cons and.... Well you are silly.

The con upgrades are clearly and DIRECTLY an inflation of conscript price. If you build 2 cons they are 240 mp each. Easy peasy. If you ALSO unlock molitovs then they are 280mp and 5 fuel each. Because that upgrade cost is only for cons and does nothing for anything else. The more cons you build the cheaper the relative price per squad is as it's spread out but it IS undeniably a price increase for cons. Cons are cheaper if you do not kit them out. Volks price remains the same as there is no price tied SOLEY for upgrading them ignore them or not you are not saving anything the price is bundled with a whack of other goodies.

I would say this is fine only if Grens would be allowed to gain the 5-Man upgrade at Tier 3. This could be the German Infantry version in which they get an extra man and a G43. If you want the upgrade earlier than go for the German Infantry commander that would allow you to get 5-man squads at only 2 CP, much earlier than Tier 3 would normally be up unless you are skipping multiple tech structures.

Hypothetically speaking, if OKW had the flame nade + faust tech separated from normal teching and had it be a standalone upgrade from HQ for MP/Fuel, how much would they cost and how much cheaper would their tech buildings be?

Cuz Soviets pay 125 MP and 10 fuel, IIRC for each.

So would OKW buildings be 250MP/20 fuel cheaper (cumulatively, not that much cheaper each)?

Or is the cost of the tech subsidized by the cost of making the truck in the first place?

I'd like to see what it would look like, TBH, because I think there's an argument to be made that even if the cost of the grenade+faust is covered by the cost of teching, it may be better overall to separate them and allow people to either 1) ignore those upgrades to rush teching or 2) make the decision and put more macro tax on their build order/timing.

okw pays 15 fu 100 mp for trucks x 3, if u do the math (and consider they start with -10 fu) they have the most expensive tech

The tech vs sidegrade unlock when talking about volks and cons doesn't work because volks teching to unlock their shit unlocks units and abilities. It's impossible to put a direct value on that. Teching up for OKW unlocks a tier full of units, the mg34, Sturm Shreks and volks whole kit which includes a better molotov, a snare and a weapon upgrade. Cons upgrades provide ONLY things for cons so it is directly applicable to the cost of cons. You can ignore volks entirely and teching up still gives you things. It's not a waste. Unlock con upgrades without cons and.... Well you are silly.

The con upgrades are clearly and DIRECTLY an inflation of conscript price. If you build 2 cons they are 240 mp each. Easy peasy. If you ALSO unlock molitovs then they are 280mp and 5 fuel each. Because that upgrade cost is only for cons and does nothing for anything else. The more cons you build the cheaper the relative price per squad is as it's spread out but it IS undeniably a price increase for cons. Cons are cheaper if you do not kit them out. Volks price remains the same as there is no price tied SOLEY for upgrading them ignore them or not you are not saving anything the price is bundled with a whack of other goodies.

One of the most solid takes on the subject

okw pays 15 fu 100 mp for trucks x 3, if u do the math (and consider they start with -10 fu) they have the most expensive tech

Realistically it'll be X2 since most don't do 3 trucks.

Assuming you do fastest deployment for OKW it's

100 / 15 + 200 / 25 = 300 MP / 35 Fuel for Med Truck and then
100 / 15 + 200 / 120 = 300 MP / 130 Fuel for Schwere which puts it at a total of:
600 MP / 165 Fuel.

For soviet, assuming you go for Tier 1 it's

160 / 10 for Tier 1 (special rifle)
240 / 85 for Tier 3
240 / 90 for Tier 4 which puts it at a total of:
640 MP / 185 Fuel.

I believe OKW starts with less Fuel tho, so that 20 offset is there.

But now if we factor in soviet teching for grenades/molotovs it's also another 205 MP and 20 fuel for a grand total of 845 MP / 205 Fuel.

40 fuel discrepancy for "full teching". This is partially equalized if you go Tier 2/Mechanized as OKW since that's 20 fuel more.

IMO as of now with the recent changes, it's.... fine. Before it was definitely stupid.

What a tedious game to keep track of though.

@murky depths fairly sure the molotov tech is 80mp and the AT nade is 125,not both 125. Still 205mp but for the sake of accuracy

@murky depths fairly sure the molotov tech is 80mp and the AT nade is 125,not both 125. Still 205mp but for the sake of accuracy

Ah, thanks, I'll edit post. I had started game as OKW and so couldn't check the prices.

The problem here is that once again Soviets would be balanced to match OKW, without considering what the buffs would do to a match-up against Wehrmacht.

Grens are already in a difficult spot, having swarms of 7 man conscripts running around in combination with a T-70 would easily clear Wehrmacht players off the field.

+1 to an extent

People forget about 6 man assgrens/5 man grens/ostwind

stop buff conscript

Realistically it'll be X2 since most don't do 3 trucks.

Assuming you do fastest deployment for OKW it's

100 / 15 + 200 / 25 = 300 MP / 35 Fuel for Med Truck and then
100 / 15 + 200 / 120 = 300 MP / 130 Fuel for Schwere which puts it at a total of:
600 MP / 165 Fuel.

For soviet, assuming you go for Tier 1 it's

160 / 10 for Tier 1 (special rifle)
240 / 85 for Tier 3
240 / 90 for Tier 4 which puts it at a total of:
640 MP / 185 Fuel.

I believe OKW starts with less Fuel tho, so that 20 offset is there.

But now if we factor in soviet teching for grenades/molotovs it's also another 205 MP and 20 fuel for a grand total of 845 MP / 205 Fuel.

40 fuel discrepancy for "full teching". This is partially equalized if you go Tier 2/Mechanized as OKW since that's 20 fuel more.

IMO as of now with the recent changes, it's.... fine. Before it was definitely stupid.

What a tedious game to keep track of though.

that's why i said the most expensive tech not build, as a whole, btw u forgot medics for the tier 1 and the fact that this locks okw out of LV unlike soviet, i m not saying to buff okw, I m just tired of people saying "axis get stuff for free" when it's a package deal that is sometimes more expensive and less worth (no double LMG etc or cheap pioneer with pzershrekc)

that's why i said the most expensive tech not build, as a whole, btw u forgot medics for the tier 1 and the fact that this locks okw out of LV unlike soviet, i m not saying to buff okw, I m just tired of people saying "axis get stuff for free" when it's a package deal that is sometimes more expensive and less worth (no double LMG etc or cheap pioneer with pzershrekc)

You mean it locks you out from unlocking light tanks/late-game rocket arty with your FIRST tech. Something no one else is allowed to do. Also it wasnt about axis v allies, it was specifically about just volks vs. conscripts. The US weapon rack point is completely invalid, what does that have to do with conscripts? Not everything needs to be dragged into a general axis v allies conversation

You cant say you "pay more" with tech cost like that means anything. Of course you do. That cost is also for units in the tech (as armadillo already said). The side-tech cost is for literally nothing other than 1 ability on 1 squad.

You mean it locks you out from unlocking light tanks/late-game rocket arty with your FIRST tech. Something no one else is allowed to do. Also it wasnt about axis v allies, it was specifically about just volks vs. conscripts. The US weapon rack point is completely invalid, what does that have to do with conscripts? Not everything needs to be dragged into a general axis v allies conversation

You cant say you "pay more" with tech cost like that means anything. Of course you do. That cost is also for units in the tech (as armadillo already said). The side-tech cost is for literally nothing other than 1 ability on 1 squad.

again if we go cons vs volks, volks upgrade cost more and is worse at long range doesn't give 1 more man, tech cost: 80 10 + 125 10 vs 100 15 + another 100 15 but later (like a loan), the upgrade does come earlier than cons but the 7th men cost nothing to tech

that's why i said the most expensive tech not build, as a whole, btw u forgot medics for the tier 1 and the fact that this locks okw out of LV unlike soviet, i m not saying to buff okw, I m just tired of people saying "axis get stuff for free" when it's a package deal that is sometimes more expensive and less worth (no double LMG etc or cheap pioneer with pzershrekc)

I didn't count soviet medics either, and specifically was going for 'fastest teching' option for both, since going Tier 1 as soviets means no HMG, Zis, or Mortar.

It's not "for free", I never stated that argument nor do I accept it, but I do think it is more convenient since it frees up a timing based decision.

Right now making the first SWS truck is, in all practical sense, basically unlocking flame nades.

I think the teching routes for the WFA+UKF armies are more... uhh... streamlined (not the best word, but it will do) compared to Wehr/Sov no matter how you slice it.

I didn't count soviet medics either, and specifically was going for 'fastest teching' option for both, since going Tier 1 as soviets means no HMG, Zis, or Mortar.

It's not "for free", I never stated that argument nor do I accept it, but I do think it is more convenient since it frees up a timing based decision.

Right now making the first SWS truck is, in all practical sense, basically unlocking flame nades.

I think the teching routes for the WFA+UKF armies are more... uhh... streamlined (not the best word, but it will do) compared to Wehr/Sov no matter how you slice it.

well yes soviet medic don't cost fu while okw does

btw yes soviet and ost were power creeped thanks to dlc, and required heavy buff to make it up