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StuG and JPIV Penetration

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thedarkarmadillo
13 Jun 2019, 06:46 AM
#201
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2019, 23:15 PMVipper

The FF value of mid range is abnormal it makes far more accurate than other similar units it should be fixed.

To put it in perspective FF at range 45 is as accurate as stug at range 12.5.


I would hardly call it abnormal given the price and ROF of the FF. Adding misses to the equation is just asking for frustration. The stug on the other hand fires more quickly and is substantially cheaper.
Have we not learned our lesson of high potential but unreliable units?


The FF has enough to worry about given its mobility
#stalinwept
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Widerstreit
13 Jun 2019, 07:14 AM
#202
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It has range, why would you like to give it that accuracy? The only sense for that is trolling.

Until UK pak don't get a nerf also (real fast turning, same stats as PaK40) I don't see a reason why Firefly should have that mechanism.

Normally you have:
a. bad range, good accuracy.
b. good range, bad accuracy.

e.g. Elefant has no turret, if it moves it will hit nothing. That is the mechanism how it should work.



And I don't want to nerf everything. I want to make game fair, it isn't.
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mrgame2
13 Jun 2019, 08:42 AM
#210
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To be fair, we can ask does ff still need such abnormal mid range? Td have been buffed to dominant status, especially late games. This stats is remnants of older meta. Little things like this being overlooked, adds pressure to axis tank play when it have already seen plenty of rework.
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Sander93
13 Jun 2019, 08:46 AM
#212
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2019, 22:45 PMVipper
Compare the accuracy of JP at range 55 with that of FF at range 55.


We're really arguing about roughly 0.0433 vs 0.0417 accuracy here? 95% vs 92% accuracy versus the average tank?

I know it's a stretch but I'd say that difference is rather neglectible.
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Vipper
13 Jun 2019, 08:54 AM
#213
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jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jun 2019, 08:18 AMLago


That makes it very accurate over most of its range with a dropoff at 50-60 where enemy tanks can't fire back.

Again, wasn't that your complaint about the Soviet TDs? Too accurate at max range?

I am not sure why you seem to be confused when I a make very simply points. Let me recap for you.

1) It is my opinion (and it seems for some members of the MOD team) that some TDs are too effective at max. That creates a number of issues like stale meta and reduces diversity for all factions

2) About the SU-85 what I pointed out was units seem to be balanced differently across across vet levels.

3) About the FF I simply pointed an anomaly in mid range length which is probably due to an oversight and it is not actually justified by balance reasons. This is a consistency issue not a balance issue.
:)
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Vipper
13 Jun 2019, 08:56 AM
#214
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jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jun 2019, 08:46 AMSander93


We're really arguing about roughly 0.0433 vs 0.0417 accuracy here? 95% vs 92% accuracy versus the average tank?

I know it's a stretch but I'd say that difference is rather neglectible.

Again the mid range is abnormally high and it is not justified from balance reasons. It is probably just an oversight. If one want the FF to be more accurate one can simply increase the mid accuracy then increasing the mid range to JT levels. This is a consistency issue not a balance issue.
:)
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achpawel
13 Jun 2019, 09:03 AM
#215
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Hi again - all slight buff ideas for ost stug seem to make a lot of sense to me. I'd personally go for US anti tank gun style - make ost pay munitions for added penetration plus give it an ability to increase sight at vet 2 and range for a certain duration. It shouldn't make it too potent but could help scale better into late game. It would also require some extra micro management and munitions, which seems fair.
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    thedarkarmadillo
    13 Jun 2019, 10:11 AM
    #216
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    jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jun 2019, 08:56 AMVipper

    Again the mid range is abnormally high and it is not justified from balance reasons. It is probably just an oversight. If one want the FF to be more accurate one can simply increase the mid accuracy then increasing the mid range to JT levels. This is a consistency issue not a balance issue.


    As someone who usually argues for consistency... This point doesnt really warrant absolutely derailing the entire discussion at hand to focus on THAT was my point earlier. The accuracy issue is a means to an end, an abnormality as you say but also... Not a balance issue. The firefly needing to hit due to its low ROF is a balance issue, how the ran the numbers to allow that specificly really isn't...
    #stalinwept
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    T.R. Stormjäger
    13 Jun 2019, 13:08 PM
    #218
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    So back to the topic.

    You have a cheap/moderate TD on one hand, an expensive heavy tank on the other. In terms of game balance, do you want a pen and how often do you want it?

    IMO the most elegant solution would be a range nerf to all TDs, a RoF buff, an accuracy nerf and a penetration buff. That would make them better vs heavies, less of a total shut down of medium armour, and would prevent the sniping from far away which is so annoying and unhistorical.
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    Felinewolfie
    13 Jun 2019, 13:26 PM
    #219
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    jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jun 2019, 07:14 AMWiderstreit
    It has range, why would you like to give it that accuracy? The only sense for that is trolling.

    Until UK pak don't get a nerf also (real fast turning, same stats as PaK40) I don't see a reason why Firefly should have that mechanism.

    Normally you have:
    a. bad range, good accuracy.
    b. good range, bad accuracy.

    e.g. Elefant has no turret, if it moves it will hit nothing. That is the mechanism how it should work.
    And I don't want to nerf everything. I want to make game fair, it isn't.

    ===========

    The only way to make the game fair is mirror stat balance.
    Making SU76 and StuG same cost, same pop, same abilities, same health, and give arty to StuG (and range!)
    Making T34/85 non doc, and same cost, price, abilities and armor stats as Panther.
    Grenadier 6x men w 2x LMG42, Conscripts with 6x men and 2x DP28, etc, etc

    Isn't that what you want? Fairness? It's the only way.
    People complain the Soviets are useless.
    Well, they are useless if you fight your units 1vs1. But they are all about Synergy.
    What do I care if you have a Panther? Once you are crippled from running over a mine
    I wait until you repair it with your 3x SturmPioneers and tell my 3x Mortars to fire at it.
    did you know Vet 1 Mortars get FLARE?!

    - 900 Manpower down the drain. - Panther still can't move worth a damn.
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    Widerstreit
    13 Jun 2019, 13:37 PM
    #220
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    Posts: 1392

    jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jun 2019, 13:26 PMFelinewolfie

    ===========

    The only way to make the game fair is mirror stat balance.
    Making SU76 and StuG same cost, same pop, same abilities, same health, and give arty to StuG (and range!)
    Making T34/85 non doc, and same cost, price, abilities and armor stats as Panther.
    Grenadier 6x men w 2x LMG42, Conscripts with 6x men and 2x DP28, etc, etc

    Isn't that what you want? Fairness? It's the only way.


    Sometimes that is the key, sometimes not. If a fraction struggles it is best to make a new ability or add a new unit, don't start to make other units be allrounder.

    e.g. Yes, for me T34/85 also has to be non-doc.

    e.g. Cons now get 7 men, that is also a DPS buff. You see, it works.
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