Mirror Match

Relic should at least experiment with the Mirror Match in the beta test.

People who are against CoH2 mirror matches on basis of how CoH mirror matches would work; you realize that the factions in CoH were designed without mirror matches in mind? If Relic were to have the option of mirror matches, I can assure you that they would put some more thought into that aspect than they did in CoH, where mirror matches were a complete non-issue. "Ermagerd think about wehr vs wehr" won't necessarily be the same thing, because CoH2 isn't the same game.

I'm not sure you can just take something like the great vCoH factions we had and turn them mirror-compatible. The question is whether you'd actually make the game better designing factions around mirrors.

@Naeras: Then what about the mirror match mod ? The one which never saw popularity. I mean that one rather counters the whole it can't be done. So my argument stands. If there had been some greater desire for mirror matches, then it would have found an outlet in the modding community. Just like the ones who wanted the eastern front did, or north africa, or a game without base building, or something more contemporary in terms of combat.. Yet it never did.

If I remember correctly, that (those) mod(s) allowed only for specific mirror matches, because of the way the choosing factions works in CoH. Thus, a mirror match mod wouldn't include all the factions. At least that's what I remember people(read: Kolaris) telling me.

It's not necessarily that modders didn't want it. It's just that it wasn't something anyone would implement over the other kinds of functionality they were interested in. However, I have no problems seeing why people didn't want mirror matches in CoH, as the factions weren't designed around the option of mirror matches. But like I said, if Relic decides to offer the option of mirror matches, I can guarantee you they'll design the factions with that possibility in mind to ensure that the mirrors aren't crap. Thus the whole "people didn't want it for CoH so it shouldn't be in CoH2"-argument isn't very good, in my opinion.

I'm not sure you can just take something like the great vCoH factions we had and turn them mirror-compatible. The question is whether you'd actually make the game better designing factions around mirrors.

It really depends on whether they had mirrors in mind from the beginning, or whether they just slapped it on later just for the hell of it. It also depends quite a bit on how similar the factions were to vCoH, as we risk mirrors where weapon teams and pios run the show for the first seven minutes until people get tanks/ACs.

afaik, mirrors were available for vCoH beta. also, thread now has 20 pages, i guess pretty much everything has been said already.

i am not going to support mirrors in the beta. .....[snip].....Absolutely boring.

Ah Ha. I see your objection now.

As a defensive faction specialist you are worried that both players in a game would camp up 1 VP, shower the other guy with Arty and hope to take advantage of a defensive posture?. So for you wehr vs wehr would be 'boring' because you would be faced with an opponent using similar tedious tactics.

mmmh. Well one. Serves you right. And two. The factions do not have to be quite so static vs mobile, can camp vs must come forward, as in vCoH. Both need to earn vet and the campaign has both factions as aggressors and defenders. So you might have to change your play style a bit. No harm in that.

Not the right claim there Dumsfeld. And not very nice either. Fact is, I don't play the wehrmacht defensively. I play them quite agressively in fact. Secondly, it was not just Ostheer vs Ostheer, but also Soviet vs Soviet which was dull.

Thirdly. It was not even that. It was the fact that from my point of view, i had a lot less to worry about since this being a mirrored match. I already knew a lot more of what was going to happen and what to do. that was the fun thing about an American vs Wehrmacht matchup, from either side. The assymetrical sides rather fostered a lot of different strategies and tactics because their armies were different.

It's also largely why the wehrmacht vs Brit matchup had it's issues because it was to a larger extent much more predictable due to the limited choices of a brit player and the even more limited choices a brit player would take. Or for that matter most wehrmacht players do in the same situation.

But if you're just going to make a crude generalisation. Then be my guest, go ahead. But don't expect me to take you seriously

Comparing COH2 mirrors with hypothetical COH1 mirrors just makes no sense, as pointed out earlier in this thread.

If mirrors were a goal, of course some thought would be put into how to make different approaches possible.
Honestly, from playing the alpha, the more i played it the less awkward mirrors felt. In the end it felt just like playing any other matchup really. But then again, i am not a history nerd as some others.

We've discussed this to death. Yes, the asymmetry between factions is amazing, and with mirror matches, a little bit of that is inevitably lost BUT...

the main reason people are flipping off has not to do with gameplay, but "immersion" as they like to call it. If this was Company of Space Heroes: Black Ops, nobody would care because in the end, it wasn't Commies fighting Nazis. But put Ivan fighting Ivan, or Kraut fighting Kraut, and you got yourself a very angry WW2 fanboi. Its a matter of taste and preference, more than gameplay.

Strong comments to some, I know, but its a plain fact.

afaik, mirrors were available for vCoH beta. also, thread now has 20 pages, I guess pretty much everything has been said already.

Thats a rather bald claim.
Id like to add that by the introduction of mirror matches, relic shows their disinterest in the general opinion of the CoH1 community, as the majority seems to oppose it. Luckily they dont take advise from people on fora.

Thats a rather bald claim.
Id like to add that by the introduction of mirror matches, relic shows their disinterest in the general opinion of the CoH1 community, as the majority seems to oppose it. Luckily they dont take advise from people on fora.

Luckily, you don't know what you're talking about...

Thats a rather bald claim.
Id like to add that by the introduction of mirror matches, relic shows their disinterest in the general opinion of the CoH1 community, as the majority seems to oppose it. Luckily they dont take advise from people on fora.

This is bald claim on your side, and exacly oppoiste of what Relic stated, regarding community opinion on mirror matches. For the record, they stated community was very divided on the subcject, which can easily been seen if you open your eyes.
Now they have lots of valid data on the matter (uhhhhh lets see, like from peaople who actually played the game?), while you have bs to backup your claim on majority opinion...

You sir, fail hard.

Now back to mirror match and people not locked in the box - a thought to consider:
Mirror matches gives a great tool to balance out and develop the metagame.
Players, in the process of learning and competing, sooner or later WILL find imbalances and easy/cheesy tricks/strats/builds. This fact was proven on so many levels and points in time of the CoH metagame development, that I think its out of discussion.

Now without mirror matches, these players are pretty safe, focusing on the single (most) imbalanced faction, staying there on the giving end.

Mirror match will not allow that, as they WILL ba matched against the very same faction, with the very same cheese. Time to try the recivieng end, fellas, no more safe spots.

This gives two big advantages:
1. Quicker and more accurate way to identify imbalances, which leads to quicker and better solutions.
2. No safe spots for cheesy players, who tend to ruin the game for most others.

I see this as a win situation, considering the cost it takes (historical accuracy, decreased assymetry).
I really hope this stays in the game, when it's realeased, as I belive Relic guys are able to pull this off in a reasonable way.
Just a food for thought.

I am going to make a bald clam here and say that we need a balance forum and we need to throw this thread into it.

That wood ba a good ideea peaople.

Now without mirror matches, these players are pretty safe, focusing on the single (most) imbalanced faction, staying there on the giving end.

Mirror match will not allow that, as they WILL ba matched against the very same faction, with the very same cheese. Time to try the recivieng end, fellas, no more safe spots.

no, mirror matches just allows them to bring the hurt to other unsuspecting players of the same faction ;-)
so, according to your logic, at some point everybody will play said faction and said strategy.

i advise everybody who hasn't done so already, go back and read all posts in this thread. you'd be able to see how divided the community is about mirror matchups, and also, how pretty much all arguments for and against mirrors have been discussed in excess, over and over again.

all arguments for and against mirrors have been discussed in excess, over and over again.

That's no reason to stop the debate.

Having followed your advice one point I did notice was that several people who had a gut reaction against mirrors later changed their minds having read the arguments and thought about the issue some more. I just skimmed through this time but I didn't find anyone who had previously been in favour of mirrors who subsequently changed their mind to be against.

That alone seems to be a good reason to continue the debate.

Now back to mirror match and people not locked in the box - a thought to consider:
Mirror matches gives a great tool to balance out and develop the metagame.
Players, in the process of learning and competing, sooner or later WILL find imbalances and easy/cheesy tricks/strats/builds. This fact was proven on so many levels and points in time of the CoH metagame development, that I think its out of discussion.

Now without mirror matches, these players are pretty safe, focusing on the single (most) imbalanced faction, staying there on the giving end.

Mirror match will not allow that, as they WILL ba matched against the very same faction, with the very same cheese. Time to try the recivieng end, fellas, no more safe spots.

Actually the opposite is true. Without mirror matches, those players would be forced to learn both factions in order to compete (by far the best argument against mirror matches tbh), while with mirror matches they can compete only having learned a single faction.

Also, the same 'cheese' strategies that work in a mixed matchup do not necessarily work in a mirror matchup, in fact I'd say it's very unlikely they'll be getting a taste of what they're doing to the other faction.

An additional thought to consider that I've yet to see anyone bring up would be expansions. While we can't assume anything, it feels very possible that in the future we will see expansions that introduce additional factions into the mix, just like with OF. With mirrors enabled, I don't see that ever being remotely balanced.

This is bald claim on your side, and exacly oppoiste of what Relic stated, regarding community opinion on mirror matches. For the record, they stated community was very divided on the subcject, which can easily been seen if you open your eyes.
Now they have lots of valid data on the matter (uhhhhh lets see, like from peaople who actually played the game?), while you have bs to backup your claim on majority opinion...

You sir, fail hard.

1. Which "data" might that be then? As far as I know there was no survey among CoH1 players, therefore their data is the same as mine, which is opinions on fora and such.

2. If they find the community divided, this is a sign that introducing mirror matches is going against the community, as the community has no objections to NOT introducing mirror matches, otherwise they wouldn't be playing CoH1 in the first place.

3. I'd appreciate if you would keep it somewhat civilized. Just because you dont agree with me is no need to tell me to open my eyes and use korny phrases such as "You sir, fail hard". Neither improve your argumentation. However, it does enhance my argumentation on Relic ignoring fora opinions.

Actually the opposite is true. Without mirror matches, those players would be forced to learn both factions in order to compete (by far the best argument against mirror matches tbh), while with mirror matches they can compete only having learned a single faction.

The thing is that if a player can focus on playing a single faction rather than having to be capable of playing both, the level at which they play their favored faction will be more refined than if they had to play both of them, ultimately resulting in better matches.

An additional thought to consider that I've yet to see anyone bring up would be expansions. While we can't assume anything, it feels very possible that in the future we will see expansions that introduce additional factions into the mix, just like with OF. With mirrors enabled, I don't see that ever being remotely balanced.

You're confusing potential balance issues with potential design issues here. Mirror matches are balanced by default. The issue is really to make the mirror matches interesting, but that's a question of design.
The issue from a balance perspective is really to make all the asymmetrical matchups balanced.

The thing is that if a player can focus on playing a single faction rather than having to be capable of playing both, the level at which they play their favored faction will be more refined than if they had to play both of them, ultimately resulting in better matches.

He knows more about the faction but less about the game. Without having approached it from both sides he's not as good of a player and understands less about the game as a whole. My experience with mirrors (that do not include SC) is that specialists are never the best overall players, and watching a game between two specialists is never as interesting as it is between two players who know the game as a whole.

You're confusing potential balance issues with potential design issues here. Mirror matches are balanced by default. The issue is really to make the mirror matches interesting, but that's a question of design.
The issue from a balance perspective is really to make all the asymmetrical matchups balanced.

The point is with just 4 matchups OF was never even closed to balanced. Make that 8 and you get the idea. If you're saying you can just completely ignore mirrors when it comes to balancing the game, then in my opinion you've already admitted mirrors are inferior. There needs to be a healthy variety of viable strategies in a mirror, and making that happen while also balancing 2 other matchups would be quite difficult.

He knows more about the faction but less about the game. Without having approached it from both sides he's not as good of a player and understands less about the game as a whole. My experience with mirrors (that do not include SC) is that specialists are never the best overall players, and watching a game between two specialists is never as interesting as it is between two players who know the game as a whole.

Unless the factions are created so asymmetrically that skills from one faction won't necessarily translate to another(i.e. comparing terran and zerg), you honestly need to play more than one faction at a relatively high level to understand the inner workings of the faction. However, the ability to focus primarily on just one faction means that even though you can play the other factions at a high level, you'll be able to play your main faction at the highest level. Which, in turn, elevates the level of play overall.
For that reason, specialists are often not quite on level with a somewhat-less-of-a-specialist, at least from what I've experienced.

The point is with just 4 matchups OF was never even closed to balanced. Make that 8 and you get the idea. If you're saying you can just completely ignore mirrors when it comes to balancing the game, then in my opinion you've already admitted mirrors are inferior. There needs to be a healthy variety of viable strategies in a mirror, and making that happen while also balancing 2 other matchups would be quite difficult.

Again, it's a design issue more than anything else. TvT is/was one of the deepest match-ups in SC2, providing each player with a massive variety of options and styles. Terran was, by far, the best designed faction of that game, though. Contrast that with protoss mirrors, and then consider how well protoss were designed compared to terran.

Obviously it's still going to be harder to design around mirror matches, but if that's something Relic has had in mind all along, it could still work out if they're wary of what they're doing. And according from what I've heard from people that tried the alpha, they didn't experience any problems with the mirrors contra asymmetrical matches. Thus, I'm optimistic, though still open to removing mirrors if they turn out to be crap/too much work.

Again, it's a design issue more than anything else. TvT is/was one of the deepest match-ups in SC2, providing each player with a massive variety of options and styles. Terran was, by far, the best designed faction of that game, though. Contrast that with protoss mirrors, and then consider how well protoss were designed compared to terran.

Obviously it's still going to be harder to design around mirror matches, but if that's something Relic has had in mind all along, it could still work out if they're wary of what they're doing. And according from what I've heard from people that tried the alpha, they didn't experience any problems with the mirrors contra asymmetrical matches. Thus, I'm optimistic, though still open to removing mirrors if they turn out to be crap/too much work.

you made no point at all in those two paragraphs, at least none that would fit the part that you were quoting.

it's not a "design issue" if you nerf one unit, because it is too OP in one matchup, and thereby mess up all other matchups... it's not a design issue, unless you call mirror matches a design issue.

also (and i have to admit, i was never really good at it), if i remember TvT in SC2 correctly, if both players made it to mid game, the player with more vikings won like 90% of the time.