Mirror Match

pretty much exactly what i've been saying all along. and even in starcraft 2 with their near perfectly symmetrical maps, certain starting positions make certain strategies almost completely unviable that might have been perfectly viable with different starting positions.

How many people here are actually playing in Alpha and have tried the mirror matches? They are quite enjoyable.

Talking about the alpha is a breach of the NDA so even those of us who are in it can't say whether we enjoy mirror matches or not.

SE owns in 2vs2.

SE isn't useless in 1v1 either.

How many people here are actually playing in Alpha and have tried the mirror matches? They are quite enjoyable.

I, for one, am happy to hear that, if they do happen to implement mirrors. I'm still concerned (pretty much convinced) that it will be way too "suspence-of-belief-breaking" for me, and I simply won't be able to enjoy CoH2 like I enjoyed CoH.
People having fun is the only remedy I can imagine for that.

SE isn't useless in 1v1 either.

It's been like, a few years since I've played, give me a break

SE would be useless in a 1v1 PE mirror though

But I don't think anyone is debating that vCoH couldn't handle mirrors, the question is whether that's changed in CoH2.

It's been like, a few years since I've played, give me a break

It was never useless when OF first came out either, it was just fallschrimjaeger were too good at the time so the other doctrines got underplayed and the gameplay for tank destroyers or scorched earth didn't start to develop until the fallschrimjaegers got toned down.

Back on topic leave mirrors in because I want to be able to do BO1 rounds in tournaments.

With regards to DoW2, mirrors weren't really mirrors because of the commander choice which gives you different abilities to spend red on and also the commander them self which greatly effects the game or you had players like who had a pocket faction they used when they didn't want to play mirrors since you had 6 factions to choose from.

As far as tourneys go the tourney makers could set the rules.

Example

rusia vs germany
germany vs rusia
for 3rd round the players could choose whatever faction they like.

So I don't see a problem there.

As far as ranks have a rank for rusia vs germany,a rank for rusia vs rusia,a rank for germany vs rusia and a germany vs germany rank.

could even have an untick button for mirror. (Need one for brits in coh hehe).


I for one would like the mirror option included and wish it was in COH also.

I hope they will keep it because it offers 2 match-up instead of one so more diversity. This isnt SC2, basing ur argument on "in SC2 mirror are boring" makes no sense since SC2 is a traditional 90s RTS style which has very less in common with COH serie. A much more pertinent comparison can be made with DOW2 mirrors which were quite decent imo

I'm just going to say no. Largely because i don't think it has anything to do in CoH2. Because i find it dull. Because i believe it will harm the otherwise great asymetrical gameplay that is rather one of the hallmarks of CoH.

I do like the kind historical view, having all games being axis vs allied.

Though I can't express myself on which view is more competitive or balanced due to lack of experience with such things.

I root for the game to expand competitive and balance wise. My opinion on mirror match ups is rather cloudy at the moment.

As Imperial Dane says: I also do like the asymmetrical gameplay seen in CoH.

I'm not particularly fond of the idea. Personally, it just bothers me on a (I suppose) historical accuracy perspective. Guess what? That's on me. I don't have to play mirror matches if I don't want to.

Anyone who wants COH2 to be a serious competitive RTS should support mirror matches.

This point exactly. No matter how "dumb" or off it feels, mirror matches will hypothetically allow more diverse gameplay and therefore more diverse games. Because of this, it should draw more players and/or spectators. Keeping in mind that CoH2 is a game.

Regardless of how realistic a mirror match is, the gameplay will be different than a regular Axis versus Allies match. Taking the names/labels of the factions out of it, from a purely game playing perspective, it allows for more choices, varied matchups, different strategies, etc. Overall it appears to me that mirror matches would have a net benefit for gameplay.

Rogers and I discussed this issue a few days back and almost unanimously agreed that mirror matches in competitive play was something we didn't want to see. However, after a very different and challenging game we played later on, I began to rethink my conclusion completely, eventually coming to a different view altogether.

So those more inclined towards "historical accuracy" are free to play that way, and those who want to play a game in mixed/mirrored match are also free to play as they want.

I had a potential solution to the problem of filtering mirror matches on ladder for some players, but I don't think this is the time to get into "what if" scenarios. I believe it's possible to implement mirror matches without 'hurting' the overall feel of the game.

I can see the potential for a decrease in a competitive feel, one reason being it could feel more "free for all" and less one side versus the opposite side. Who knows, but I'd be interested in finding out.

What hasnt even been mentioned is:
Since mirror matchups are balanced "by definition"... wouldnt every single game be decided by the RNG? How much fun would that be?

I cannot emphasize enough my dislike for the possibility of mirror matches of any kind in COH2. It destroys any sort of idea that the game is about World War 2.

i cant be fucked reading all the posts here. but they went to alot of effort to make it realistic. weather and true sight etc. and they go and put mirror match in which is so unrealistic its not funny.

honestly after playing more. i'm okay with mirror matches if they do or don't i think ill be happy either way.

I cannot emphasize enough my dislike for the possibility of mirror matches of any kind in COH2. It destroys any sort of idea that the game is about World War 2.

Yoink I really hate to be the one to burst your bubble but out of every single match ever played in the original Company of Heroes, nothing even remotely resembling actual World War 2 ever took place. Mirror matches make as much sense as building a barracks 300 meters from your opponent's headquarters, capturing a magical victory point location to win a battle, driving around a King Tiger with a single M10 for 30 seconds trying to whittle its health bar down, or getting into a cloaking battle with your sniper vs. the enemy sniper.

And MV Game, if you think true sight and weather mechanics make the game realistic, you've probably never used your eyes in real life or been in the snow in real life, because with actual true sight in real life can see further than the 30 meters you can see with "true sight," and actual snow in real life doesn't kill groups of people one at a time in set intervals unless they hide in yellow cover. It kills everyone at about the same time.

Okay. Yes. Let's talk about this. I'm exceptionally glad you brought this up because this opens a very, very good point about why I'm against mirror matches.

First let me say that this is a subject that I've been giving a lot of thought ever since the possibility of mirror matches came up. As someone who is both a player and a longtime shoutcaster, I absolutely understand the thoughts from pro players that say that mirror matches could lead to a greater possibility of COH2 being accepted as an e-sports game. I also fully support the hope that one day that COH will become a great e-sports title that people around the world compete in. That being said, I sincerely believe that allowing mirror matches in any way is the wrong way to try to achieve this. The ends do not justify the means here. In fact, I think it destroys the game. I also find it a little insulting. But more on that later.

First let me ask all of you: Why are any of us playing COH (Or COH2) in the first place? I can think of several *extremely* popular RTS games that are more refined and much more balanced than COH. Starcraft 2 comes to mind. Hell Starcraft 1 comes to mind, too. Ultimately, I expect there is a myriad of great answers out there as to why we're all attracted to COH, and all of them are valid. Perhaps it was the game mechanics. Perhaps it was the amazing sound and graphics. For some it's the unique retreat and cover systems. But the one thing that I think we can all agree on is that COH is NOT perfectly balanced. Especially the OF factions. So I don't think that anyone can say that they're drawn to COH for the "amazing balance." But there is one thing that we all have in common as COH players. Every. Single. One. Of. Us. And that's that when we play COH, we're all playing a World War 2 real time strategy game.

And that leads me to Tychocelchuu's point. Is COH a very realistic WW2 game? Absolutely not. Is COH a very realistic war game in ANY way? Not really at all. The combat and physics system lend themselves more to an arcade game than any kind of actual real combat simulator. But while COH may not be realistic at all, it IS *authentic*. Every single unit modeled in COH was used in World War 2. The King Tiger didn't see much combat until the end of the war, but it existed, and the thing was a beast. The 101st Airborne dropped into Normandy, and some of them were armed with recoilless rifles. And the Wehrmacht was one of the first armies in the world to use a true assault rifle, the Sturmgewehr 44. Do ANY of these things behave in real life like they do in COH? No. But they existed. And they're included in the game in the *exact same context as they were used in real life*. You can't use the King Tiger as the Americans and the German's aren't driving Shermans in COH. The game functions under a very strict set of CONTEXTUAL RULES.

When you allow mirror matches, you destroy any authenticity that the game hopes to achieve. You also destroy any context in which to play the game. For the sake of trying to make a game more balanced, you have actually destroyed any possibility of the game being seen as World War 2 experience. For me, the setting in which this game takes place is *extremely* important. I'm attracted to this game, in great part, to the fact that it's authentically World War 2. Playing a game on Angoville reminds me that an actual World War 2 battle took place on the Angoville farms in France. Did it look anything like the game I'm playing right now? No, but it's couched in historical authenticity. When I shoutcast a game, I shoutcast it using the historical knowledge that 70 years ago, these two armies actually did fight, and the units involved actually went head to head in some way in France and Germany.

Why is any of this important, you might ask? Well ask yourself this question: Are you playing this game because you simply love the mechanics, or are you playing this game because of something more? If Relic kept the exact same engine, the exact same unit types, and the exact same mechanics, but made it a game about Kittens vs Puppies, would you still play it? Every single unit on the Kitten team behaves exactly like an American unit, and every single unit on the Puppy team behaves exactly like a Wehrmacht unit. The mechanics are all the same. If this is true for you, then you don't really love COH...you just love the rules system that Relic built. And let me tell you, you'll be even happier with other RTS games out there. Because there are better ones. Heck, you can even Sci-Fi it up with DOW2.

If you allow the Russians to fight the Russians and the Germans to fight the Germans in COH2, what's to stop us from really changing *anything* about the game for the sake of balance? It becomes trivial to introduce totally non-authentic concepts and powers to either side, since you've thrown any sort of historical authenticity out the window. If we get mirror matches, I hope someday in future DLC we'll be seeing the Japanese vs the Germans, the Americans vs the Brits, and the Italians vs the Chinese. Maybe we'll throw in an alternate universe DLC pack that includes a Martian invasion of the Third Reich, because it doesn't matter anyway, we're not actually dealing with World War 2 anymore.

The bottom line is that when you allow mirror matches in *any* way, you are destroying the very spirit of the game in the hope of achieving balance and fame. I personally don't want to play a game that's not couched in a World War 2 setting. And when I choose the Russians and end up fighting more Russians, I realize I'm just playing a set of mechanics and rules. There is no longer any immersion, there is no longer any perspective.

And finally, I think it's insulting to think that players wouldn't care or notice that a group of developers would travel all the way to Eastern Europe, visit the sites of battles, interview historians there, and even record the actual sounds of weapons being used in this great conflict, only to try and pass off to these same players that mirror matches somehow makes the game a more fulfilling experience. Why on Earth would you go to such great lengths to achieve this level of historical immersion only to throw it away with a fantastical voyage into bizarre army matchups?

TL;DR If developers are going to make a WW2 game, it's incumbent upon them to keep it historically *authentic*. Otherwise, just make a game about puppies and kittens.