Mirror Match

By symmetrical maps, do you mean symmetrical or pseudo-symmetrical?

Depends on what you mean by pseudo-symmetrical, I haven't heard that term in this context before.

No, mirrors suck who ever disagreed before! coh2 unit types of more aggressive then tactical are basically what coh2 should escape - so as well as it is going there - mirrors could be just fine in terms of game play (same as u play wher vs rus or rus vs rus - no difference feels due to lack of more tactical units) if u close the eyes its russians killin' russians wtf!

Tho that would be the major thing for me not to even buy game after trying beta.

Depends on what you mean by pseudo-symmetrical, I haven't heard that term in this context before.

Kinda like Dumont, the layout is near symmetrical, the buildings, sectors, everything.

Unlike Wolfheze

Interesting article here: http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/09/starcraft-2-developer-ama-reveals-why-some-things-had-to-be-cut-from-hots-the-problem-with-pro-player-feedback/

The SC2 devs talk about the problems with prop player feedback, and it's specifically relavent to mirrors; namely, impartial balancing is much harder if you can win tournaments with a single faction.

interesting read, thx Tommy

Kinda like Dumont, the layout is near symmetrical, the buildings, sectors, everything.

Unlike Wolfheze

Yeah, more or less that. Except, well, the map actually needs to be good, so not like St. Mere Dumont in any other way but the symmetry. x_x

It's easier to get screwed by starting positions if the map isn't symmetrical. At best, you need to modify your gameplan depending on starting positions(Angoville, Langres), at worst the map goes from decent to unwinnable depending on starting positions(old Sturz and WT).

Sry for bumping the topic, but I had to give my 2 cents as well

I think most people dont realize that CoH has a very different combat mechanic compared to SC2.

In SC every unit always hits and always does the same amount of damage, it only depends on what upgrade each units has and whether or not the enemy has armor. However it does not matter what unit you fight against. A marine will still always hit and will always do his standard damage.

In CoH each unit has several modifiers against all kinds of different units.
For example:

A Pak does a certain damge x. This damage x is modified by the target it is shooting at. There are different modifiers for heavy tanks, light vehicles and infantry.
It also uses different accuracy modifiers. Many of you probably still know how the accuracy modifier of AT guns has changed several times during vCoH. Or Schrecks (vs. light vehicles).


On top of that, some units have specific modifiers vs specific other units, sometimes influenced by their veterancy.

So maybe you are already getting my point. The game is only balanced towards a non mirrored match up.
To give an example:

The US and british AT-Guns have a much higher penetration and damage output compared to its german counter part. Why? Obviously because of the asymmetric balance. Germans have better tanks, but allies have better AT guns.
What happens when a PAK is fighting a King Tiger? Well, pretty much nothing.
As a result, it would only be viable to fight tanks with tanks.
At the very least some units will become completely useless. That might be ok if CoH was famous for its large number of different units, but its not.

A CoH developer once stated that you couldnt just let Wehrmacht fight Wehrmacht. In order for that to be balanced, they had to change hundreds of said modifiers.

Also, much of the fun comes out of the fact that there are vastly different units on the field at any given time. Its a difference between having some volks/mg combo with a HT and some mines fight vs M8's and rifles or if you just fight rifles vs rifles and M8 vs M8.

Now they might have designed CoH 2 arround the idea of mirror matching, so that the mentioned problems wont be such a big deal. However the fact that mirror matches are usually more boring still stays. That is not only bad for the matches themselves but also for e sport. Maybe 2on2 would be more fun as there are more variations.

Still, I think its a hard task to do it right (dont forget the bulletins and commander abilities). If they implement it, it should stay in basic non ranked matches. It might be fun every now and then.

I'd much rather see a good variety in map designs, which will have great effect on how each battle plays out. That is much more interesting to watch and play, compared to mirror matches.

I also fail to see how mirrors can make a game more competitive. Its like saying shrinking the seize of a football goal makes the game more competitive. Its makes it different at best and more boring to watch (ok, yes bad example, but still )

Starcraft is also balanced by units having special modifiers vs. other units. There are different armor types and different attacks with different bonuses against different armor types. If Starcraft had no mirror matches right now we could easily imagine someone saying something like "think about the Ghost, which has bonus snipe damage vs. biological/psi units, and EMP. Why? Obviously because of asymmetric balance. Zerg have Infestors, which are biological/psi, and Protoss have shields. What happens when a Ghost is fighting against a Terran army? Well,pretty much nothing. As a result, it would only be viable to fight Siege Tanks with Siege Tanks."

Starcraft is also balanced by units having special modifiers vs. other units. There are different armor types and different attacks with different bonuses against different armor types. If Starcraft had no mirror matches right now we could easily imagine someone saying something like "think about the Ghost, which has bonus snipe damage vs. biological/psi units, and EMP. Why? Obviously because of asymmetric balance. Zerg have Infestors, which are biological/psi, and Protoss have shields. What happens when a Ghost is fighting against a Terran army? Well,pretty much nothing. As a result, it would only be viable to fight Siege Tanks with Siege Tanks."

I know that some units in Starcraft are more less there only for a certain match up. Thats why I said it would be ok, if CoH had the same amount of units. But taking away a few units from a rather small pool, leaves you with the same units fighting the same units all the time.


I'm thinking about a wehr vs wehr matchup.

Both players decide to go T2. Both know the Pak will be more or less useless later on. So both will go for Grens and upgrade some of them with Schrecks just i case. What you get is Schreck upgraded Grens vs Grens with maybe inf Ht support, so battles will take for freaking ever. Is it interesting to play? Is it interesting to watch?

In SC2 its at least kind of interesting to watch marines fight marines, since its much more micro focused, plus you get things like drops and the like.
But yeah, sometimes Terran mirror matches come down to siege tanks vs siege tanks and its boring. It might not be a big deal in Pro match ups, since those people have the skill to multitask and use the mobility of dropships, but normal players will basically just siege each other to death.

And as far as I recall, many pros and semi pros say that the PvP mirror was usually decided by a coinflip, at least in WoL (buildorder win), while the ZvZ is 90% Bainling/Zergling vs Bainling/Zergling.

I am not saying that mirrors should at all costs be avoided. Implement them as an option for non ranked matches, fine with me.
But I just cant see it making the game more balanced, more competitive, more e-sport friendly and whatnot.

Again, I much rather see varied and exciting gameplay come out of good designed maps. Symmetrical and asymmetrical (maybe have fixed positions for Wehr and sov in asymmetrical maps).
For some people Blizzard actually made the mistake and took alot of map based strategies out of the game completely. For example. In stead of balancing the game around the idea of having cliff drops and stuff like that, they changed the maps so that these tactics werent possible at all. Now many maps feel basically the same, with only very minor details like position of you natural or the size of your ramp etc..

Yeah, I mean, I guess I sort of agree. Really the best solution is just to put them in and then if it turns out they suck, take them out during the beta.

Comparing COH2 mirrors with hypothetical COH1 mirrors just makes no sense, as pointed out earlier in this thread.

If mirrors were a goal, of course some thought would be put into how to make different approaches possible.
Honestly, from playing the alpha, the more i played it the less awkward mirrors felt. In the end it felt just like playing any other matchup really. But then again, i am not a history nerd as some others.

as much as i hate to say when i played the beta i came to the same conclusion. ^

as much as no mirror matches appeal to me the more I played alpha the more mirror matches appeal to me. right now im about at 50-50 probably stay that way to.

definitely should at least try it out in the beta.

Some people still dont understand the difference between , realism and authenticity . CoH relies in the latter to immerse you in it , the devs say it themselves ''we want you to feel like you r the commander of a company of ww2 heroes '' , i am very curious as to how mirror matches fit in that setting . As to determing the skill of those competing , what you determine is how good is a player in the mirror matchup which means you are missing the skill in the ''real matchup'' . Also on map making really symmetric maps are terribly boring to see and what made coh great to start with for me at least was the assymetry of the whole thing ( and even at games such as sc2 they sometimes prohibit mirrors in the highest level of tournament play because they are usually boring tactically not that exciting ). Personally i think that if they put an avoid option in automatch and use mirror matches mainly to internally balance each faction so that there are no no-brainer choices to do then they are on the right path . If on the other hand they think they will attract more players then i think they've got it wrong .

How anyone can claim putting a coh1 mirror scenario in a coh2 is a valid point is beyond me. :/ It's like saying a squad mechanic wouldn't work in Starcraft 3, because starcraft 2 have too strong AoE abilities to make reinforcing effective.

How anyone can claim putting a coh1 mirror scenario in a coh2 is a valid point is beyond me. :/ It's like saying a squad mechanic wouldn't work in Starcraft 3, because starcraft 2 have too strong AoE abilities to make reinforcing effective.

yeah but it gives us something to relate too , also the closest thing to coh2 is coh1 if mirrors would suck in coh i dont think they would suddenly become good in coh2

1. go look at other games with mirror matchups, namely SC2.

straw man argument.

if Relic is an excellent game design company they should be able to create a game on the level with the RTS game iwth the best mirror matchups made in the history of the genre.
Namely, Brood War.

Brood War Mirrors matches are great.

Furthermore, Terran mirrors in SC2 are fantastic.
Those Flash v. Innovation games were great....
GSL hosted a tonne a great Terran mirror matches.

Brood War Mirrors matches are great.

straw man argument.

also: took you only 3 months to answer ;-)

straw man argument.
also: took you only 3 months to answer ;-)

hey man.. i'm busy watching MLG, GSL and ProLeague...
o...and
spamming like 6 forum boards simultaneously.

Quinn Duffy has just confirmed that final version of CoH2 will feature mirror matches .
Here's what he had to say, when asked about possibility of mirrors not making it into final release:

Mirrors will be part of the game - they're in custom right now. We'll be looking at a lot of metrics from the upcoming beta. Either way, building the game to support mirrors has led to a much cleaner experience on the back end and got us to clean up a lot of assumptions in the code-base that were limited to non-mirror gameplay.

So, the only question that remains is, will mirrors be only in customs, or in auto as well?

So, the only question that remains is, will mirrors be only in customs, or in auto as well?

If the mirrors actually do turn out to suck donkeyballs, it's not impossible that they'll have automatch be USSR vs Wehr only, provided the automatch-players yell loudly enough.

Then again, this depends on whether or not the mirrors will suck or not, which time will tell. And as I've said several times throughout this thread, I'm at the very least optimistic towards them.

good move