OKW core change proposal

Problems:

Mechanized applies too much pressure

Battlegroup doesn’t apply enough pressure

Incendiary nades borderline OP (don’t know what to do about this)

No way to deal with MGs other than incendiary grenades

Lack of early AT without using pressure reducing rakketen.


I will start with my ideas for AT

Let the Rakketen fire short range HE shells(like the Russian mini AT gun) so it can apply pressure after it kills the light vehicle

Battlegroup

Give the Flack HT more HP. It’s too high risk now, being 55fu for an immobile 2-shotable suppression platform

I thought it’d be cool if it stunned units instead of suppressing them. That way it could sorta fight AT guns, still stop infantry, but that infantry, unlike now, could charge forewords and use a snare on the HT if the HT was poorly supported.


For Battlegroup, I think the Luchs should be replaced with the 221. Why? Because then you could get an anti MG unit out quicker, you could get a early 221 instead of a 4th volks, and the OP Luchs rush would be gone.



Panzer HQ split into 2 phases. First with Obers and Luchs, second with tanks


Also maybe make pz4 ausf J have more health and less armour so it’d be less RNGfest

Getting AT is supposed to reduce AI. it's a choice thing. If you get it too soon it reduces your capacity to combat infantry, too late and you are over run by infantry. It's not a design error it's intended.

- I am for giving Volksgrens the AT-rifle-grenade without requirements. (remove the Faust)
- I am for giving Volksgrens a normal grenade (remove the fire-nade)
- I am for giving Sturmpioniers a klick-me-bomb (removing the shock-nade at Vet3)
- I am for replace Püppchen with my alternative design for leIG18.
- Make Püppchen a Commander-Unit.

OKW is simply a shit of a fraction-design, same for Brits. And Ostheer would be better with Soviets-tech-System and Soviets would be better with Ost-tech-System...

so...

Problem:
Bad player.
Suggestion:
Learn to play better.

OKW needs changes though.

- I am for giving Volksgrens the AT-rifle-grenade without requirements. (remove the Faust)
- I am for giving Volksgrens a normal grenade (remove the fire-nade)
- I am for giving Sturmpioniers a klick-me-bomb (removing the shock-nade at Vet3)
- I am for replace Püppchen with my alternative design for leIG18.
- Make Püppchen a Commander-Unit.

OKW is simply a shit of a fraction-design, same for Brits. And Ostheer would be better with Soviets-tech-System and Soviets would be better with Ost-tech-System...

so...

I think the Brits adequately showed what happens when you'd remove snares from a faction. Replacing the Rakettenwerfer isn't an option either, as it would either leave OKW without an ATG (if you'd keep the AT/AI ISG in Battlegroup) in the most viable meta (Mechanized) or it would make Battlegroup even less attractive (if you'd move the ISG to the HQ).

I'd also be against units that efficiently serve two distinct roles at the same time. I never liked how with the ZiS going for heavy anti-tank also gives good AI (or anti support weapons) and by now it's clear that giving the M-42 a dual role was a mistake as well. The game is about strategic unit choices with limited resources and dual purpose units are bad for balance.


OKW does need some redesigns, but mostly to spread out the faction's power level more evenly across all stages of the match (tone down opening power, earlier Obers, etc.) and to get rid of some cheesy mechanics of certain units (Raketten stealth creep, Uhu, etc.) so the faction becomes more enjoyable both to play with as well as against.

OKW needs changes though.

No. Yes they are not perfectly designed but "fixing" something that isn´t fundamentally broken is just going to make everything worse.

From churchill thread:

- Panther, Jackson and Firefly should have 55-60 range

You can close thread now and start balancing.

From churchill thread:



You can close thread now and start balancing.

Why is Churchill good? Because it will get support by a Fire-Fly, which can shoot in save distance covered by Churchill.

The hole thread is useless, because real Problem doesn't get touched.


e.g. If Firefly gets 55 range, then the chance to hold it on save distance will be increased a lot. Panther can deal with Chruchill, while PaK can shoot Firefly.

Hull-down will become more usefull too, because StuG and Panther will outrange a little bit.




On the other sinde, also 88s, Jagdtiger and Elefant need a touch. It should not need commander Units to outplay normal meter.

I think the Brits adequately showed what happens when you'd remove snares from a faction. Replacing the Rakettenwerfer isn't an option either, as it would either leave OKW without an ATG (if you'd keep the AT/AI ISG in Battlegroup) in the most viable meta (Mechanized) or it would make Battlegroup even less attractive (if you'd move the ISG to the HQ).

I'd also be against units that efficiently serve two distinct roles at the same time. I never liked how with the ZiS going for heavy anti-tank also gives good AI (or anti support weapons) and by now it's clear that giving the M-42 a dual role was a mistake as well. The game is about strategic unit choices with limited resources and dual purpose units are bad for balance.


OKW does need some redesigns, but mostly to make spread out the faction's power level more evenly across all stages of the match (tone down opening power, earlier Obers, etc.) and to get rid of some cheesy mechanics of certain units (Raketten stealth creep, Uhu, etc.) so the faction becomes more enjoyable both to play with as well as against.

- They will still have a snare, the AT-rifle-grenade. Less damage, but more range.

- The hole game is full of bad designed units, which could be solved by moving them to other fractions.
e.g. in my opinion:

- Luchs has to be in Ostheer
- HMG42 has to be in OKW
- leIG18 has to be in Ostheer
- 222 has to be in OKW
- etc.

- leIG18 is a shame of an arty. The AT-roule would be pefect. 50 range, light arty cover.
-> and yes, line-up has to be changed more.


But first, before we touch anything we have to destroy the MG-meter of all fractions. It is simply cancer.

Why is Churchill good? Because it will get support by a Fire-Fly, which can shoot in save distance covered by Churchill.

The hole thread is useless, because real Problem doesn't get touched.


e.g. If Firefly gets 55 range, then the chance to hold it on save distance will be increased a lot. Panther can deal with Chruchill, while PaK can shoot Firefly.

Hull-down will become more usefull too, because StuG and Panther will outrange a little bit.




On the other sinde, also 88s, Jagdtiger and Elefant need a touch. It should not need commander Units to outplay normal meter.

I just wanted to highlight your brilliant idea of giving panther 60 range. I think that might be the change we all needed, assuming command panther gets 60 range as well.

Nobody would dare to say that panther is underpowered with these changes right?

Who am i kidding, next step 300 armor and 1400 hp.

- They will still have a snare, the AT-rifle-grenade. Less damage, but more range.

- The hole game is full of bad designed units, which could be solved by moving them to other fractions.
e.g. in my opinion:

- Luchs has to be in Ostheer
- HMG42 has to be in OKW
- leIG18 has to be in Ostheer
- 222 has to be in OKW
- etc.

- leIG18 is a shame of an arty. The AT-roule would be pefect. 50 range, light arty cover.
-> and yes, line-up has to be changed more.


But first, before we touch anything we have to destroy the MG-meter of all fractions. It is simply cancer.

??????????????????

I just wanted to highlight your brilliant idea of giving panther 60 range. I think that might be the change we all needed, assuming command panther gets 60 range as well.

Nobody would dare to say that panther is underpowered with these changes right?

Who am i kidding, next step 300 armor and 1400 hp.

There is a reason why I wrote a "-". The hole range system is broken, it became better when they hard-nerfed the range some years ago.

And yes, Panther in hull-down gets 62,5 range (effective 60, because of hit-box). But german vehicle can't benefit form that, because they will still fight versus 60 range units.

By put down range for Firefly, Jackson to 55 range they will still outrange Tiger and Kingtiger by 10 range and will be in critical range for Paks like ALL german tanks are. (only Jagdpanzer, Elefant and Jagdtiger).

If we now look on units without turret, they should get a benefit for that. So Jagdpanzer4 and SU85 stay at 60 range.



Best thing would be to remove Jagdtiger and Elefant from game, the hole balancing would benefit a lot. But that will not happen. But if Firefly and Jackson get their range-nerf also the Ultra hevay tankhunters can get a range-nerf. So they become easyer to counter by PaKs.

There is a reason why I wrote a "-". The hole range system is broken, it becomes better when they hard-nerfed the range some years ago.

And yes, Panther in hull-down gets 62,5 range (effective 60, because of hit-box). But german vehicle can't benefit form that, because they will still fight versus 60 range units.

By put down range for Firefly, Jackson to 55 range the will still outrange Tiger and Kingtiger by 10 range and will be in critical range for Paks like ALL german tanks are. (only Jagdpanzer, Elefant and Jagdtiger).

If we now look on units without turret, they should get a benefit for that. So Jagdpanzer4 and SU85 stay at 60 range.



Best thing would be to remove Jagdtiger and Elefant from game to, the hole balancing would benefit a lot. But that will not happen. But if Firefly and Jackson get their range-nerf also the Ultra hevay tankhunters can get a range-nerf. So the become easyer to counter by PaKs.

You make a good point but your solution is bad IMHO.

I think it should go like this:

-Tiger and KingTiger range to 65 - that way they dont get outranged by jackson

-Stug and JagdPanzer range to 70 because they dont have turret

-Panther armor to 300 just like in old good times (historically accurate btw)

You make a good point but your solution is bad IMHO.

I think it should go like this:

-Tiger and KingTiger range to 65 - that way they dont get outranged by jackson

-Stug and JagdPanzer range to 70 because they dont have turret

-Panther armor to 300 just like in old good times (historically accurate btw)

CoH isn't MenOfWar. It has to find the right balance between historical bullsh*t and right setting.

That is why Tiger and Kingtiger get outranged by everything, because it has to be like that. The Question is, does the game has fair counters? And the answer it a clear NO.

Edit:

e.g. there is a reason why Comet has 45 range, because now it has a Little bit less range than StuG and Panther with 50 range.

Brummbär has only 35 range (60 for ability), why? Because PaKs etc. get a chance to outplay it.

Now my Question: Why does Firefly and Jackson have 60 range, but the fractions also have PaKs with 60 range? All German vehicles got armor nerfs and even heavies get penned by ~80% on Long-range. = broken balance.

The only Solutions are: Nerf UK and US PaKs range to 55 or Jackson and Firefly range to 55.

Where is the non-sence? If you have any problems with me, then write my a PM on German.

Lets maybe start at not randomly switching OST and OKW units around? Especially not units like the MG42 which is supposed to be the unit Ost is played around for the first stages of the game. You can´t seriously suggest terrible ideas like that and expect no one to call you out on it.

Invised posts for being offtopic, excess flame, and one for being in german. English only please.