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russian armor

Soviet strafe

14 Oct 2013, 20:10 PM
#41
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Oct 2013, 19:59 PMryusei
It's definitely very good but relic changed it completely.

Now it's actually worth the 240 munition cost in terms of killing power but at the same time it's got a few drawbacks:
1. it's slow and shit. It takes time to circle the battlefield before even going for a bombing run. That gives tons of time to retreat
2. Germans definitely have 2 options to kill it - ostwind OR armored car. The upgunned armored car is such a cheap investment to kill the plane I would always keep one around..

The top gunners alone tend to knock down my planes pretty easily. Two or three of them put up some pretty good aa defense and they are pretty likely to be on just about any tank.
14 Oct 2013, 20:21 PM
#42
avatar of Le Wish
Patrion 14

Posts: 813 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Oct 2013, 12:44 PMNullist

Imo, generally speaking, onfield AA units should have a very strong capacity to negate aircraft. A) Because I believe units>Commanders, is a better balance principle. Since Commanders are situational, whereas native units are the games baseline. B) AA unit cost is very high imo, on both Ostwind and M5 Quad, for only AI capacity. I want to see that equity fully returned vs situational AA. B) Because it also requires positioning of the landbased AA unit in order to counter the aircraft, and I believe that should be rewarded in spades. Its easy to point and click, fire and forget an Aircraft ability, but having your AA covering that, should have a very high success rate of countering it.

Know what I mean? I would like to see AA action/commitment trump indiscriminate Aircraft use. It should be that if you havent checked their is no AA overwatching your target zone for the Aircraft, you fucking fail when your planes arrive and find an AA barrel pointed right at them. I try not to refer to IRL, but there, airstrikes are absolutely out of the question until it is ensures there is nothing in the target zone that can shoot back. No recon to ensure there is no AA? No fking way you are getting air support.


Strongly agree to this! Just hope relic gives this a thought. I kind of remember shooting down more planes in CoH1 with AA. Not entirely sure though.
15 Oct 2013, 03:14 AM
#43
avatar of Turtle

Posts: 401

Maybe more planes during a match, but not more over the game. Remember that CoH1 only 1 doctrine had planes, once you knew he took that, you could build against it, thus you had the impression of shooting down more planes.

Also, if the change was made to make AA much more effective and planes more effective, they would still have to do something to make building 3 for soviets much more effective overall against the current tank heavy meta since they would need to build that instead of T4 for SU-85s. Otherwise, there are no other AA options, and back teching is much more expensive and slow for Soviets.

It's a very tricky balance situation and I don't think huge changes are needed right now. Instead, transfer some of its infantry killing power into suppression and pinning.
15 Oct 2013, 03:21 AM
#44
avatar of Appleseed

Posts: 622

i think IL2 shoudn't compare to german strafe, it should compare to Stuka close air support (i think it is what it called). Both cost 240MU and IL2 hits both infantry and vehicles yet Stuka only hits vehicles. the damage to the tanks seems similar in comparison.
15 Oct 2013, 07:58 AM
#45
avatar of Le Wish
Patrion 14

Posts: 813 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2013, 03:14 AMTurtle
Maybe more planes during a match, but not more over the game. Remember that CoH1 only 1 doctrine had planes, once you knew he took that, you could build against it, thus you had the impression of shooting down more planes.


It was more during a game against airborne I was thinking about. It felt like the AA shot down a bigger % of the planes. But maybe its just a flawed memory. Also a huge sidenote.

On topic, since the planes now loiter alot over the battlefield, actually already make them alot more vounerable to AA. Increasing any AA efficiency will most likely shut down air-based abilities entirely.
15 Oct 2013, 10:07 AM
#46
avatar of lethalpi

Posts: 120

I played a game when the IL2 shoots down my Ostwind, bye bye counter. I think it is too powerfull, specially against vehicles.
15 Oct 2013, 12:26 PM
#47
avatar of c r u C e

Posts: 525

It's 240 munitions so for the price I think it is fine,if it was cheaper it would indeed require a nerf
15 Oct 2013, 15:27 PM
#48
avatar of Appleseed

Posts: 622

It's 240 munitions so for the price I think it is fine,if it was cheaper it would indeed require a nerf


compare to the 240MU german heavy strafe, the soviet heavy strafe is bit OP. at least i don't see german strafe kill T34 and it don't kill infantry
15 Oct 2013, 18:39 PM
#49
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561



compare to the 240MU german heavy strafe, the soviet heavy strafe is bit OP. at least i don't see german strafe kill T34 and it don't kill infantry

What are you talking about. I've seen it kill T34s and SU-85s all the time.
Or are you talking about the infantry pinning strafe. GOD DAMN THIS THREAD IS CONFUSING!!!
15 Oct 2013, 20:36 PM
#50
avatar of Tristan44

Posts: 915

^^^^^ the il2 strafe run that fires it's cannon does NOT kill tanks. It does loiter the battlefield and decimates infantry and light vehicles (as it should). Definitely not OP and expensive as shit.

People are getting confused between the il2 bombing run, German Stuka strafe, and Stuka dive bomb!! Lol. Il2 bombing run is a 1 time deal... German Stuka strafe loiters and pins, Stuka dive bomb you never see the plane but u damn well hear it (love it btw) and it destroys or severely damages whatever is in it's blast.. I think we are just talkin about il2 strafe (fires cannons). If there is a German equivalent that would be the much cheaper strafe run that only pins infantry and does NOTHING to light vehicles and tanks..

I saved a replay with il2 strafe use I wanted to post, how do I post on forum??
15 Oct 2013, 22:34 PM
#51
avatar of c r u C e

Posts: 525

Appleseed is right,the IL 2 Strafe Run does little damage to tanks,I had one destroy a low hp Ostwind(about 10-15% of its health)...
But still not OP if all your units are in your base(reinforcing) then the plane just flies in circles for 60 seconds...
15 Oct 2013, 23:38 PM
#52
avatar of Appleseed

Posts: 622

Appleseed is right,the IL 2 Strafe Run does little damage to tanks,I had one destroy a low hp Ostwind(about 10-15% of its health)...
But still not OP if all your units are in your base(reinforcing) then the plane just flies in circles for 60 seconds...


ya if it don't wipe my retreating full squad pgren in 1 pass could be nice. i see it today don't do as much damage to tanks as i thought before but did wipe 1 and half squads of pgrens in 1 pass. i guess was unlucky the other day my half health p4 dead from it. so far my Stuka heavy strafe only scratch enemy tanks guess i didn't use it right.
15 Oct 2013, 23:51 PM
#53
avatar of Blovski

Posts: 480

I'm pretty sure I've had one one-shot a Panzerwerfer I hadn't even seen yet, which I think was a bit bullshit. I wish there was some way to stop the basestrafe from being so powerful, given it can't really be dodged like a normal off-map.
16 Oct 2013, 01:22 AM
#54
avatar of DanielD

Posts: 783 | Subs: 3

In 2v2 I think it can be a serious problem if you force a retreat and then recon/strafe the base. But perhaps there's nothing wrong with the meta being: have an ostwind or lose.
16 Oct 2013, 01:25 AM
#55
avatar of undostrescuatro

Posts: 525

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2013, 23:51 PMBlovski
I'm pretty sure I've had one one-shot a Panzerwerfer I hadn't even seen yet, which I think was a bit bullshit. I wish there was some way to stop the basestrafe from being so powerful, given it can't really be dodged like a normal off-map.


i think a panzerwerfer is a light vehicle. it should be ok for it to die. it was just bad luck like a bunch of stuff in this game.
16 Oct 2013, 01:36 AM
#56
avatar of DietBrownie

Posts: 308

German Stuka close air support (the one that's 240 munitions) should do the same amount of damage like the Henschel HS 129 attack did in Panzer Elite Luftwaffe doctrine performed. It shouldn't target infantry instead just target vehicles only.
16 Oct 2013, 02:08 AM
#57
avatar of Blovski

Posts: 480



i think a panzerwerfer is a light vehicle. it should be ok for it to die. it was just bad luck like a bunch of stuff in this game.


Even then, the 1 hit kill when I'd targeted nowhere near it seems a bit extreme (so, there was no opportunity to move it at all for my opponent). To be honest, with its level of anti-infantry power I don't think it needs to chew out light vehicles *that* quickly.

With the strafes in general, I find the undodgeability and very big target area doesn't really make for decent gameplay, and if an anti-infantry strafe is killing a rocket truck in one shot, that's kind of silly imo. Wouldn't mind if the strafe could 2-hit it or something so you give the Ostheer player time to react with light vehicles even if the smoke is sneakily placed out of LOS.
16 Oct 2013, 03:28 AM
#58
avatar of Turtle

Posts: 401

German Stuka close air support (the one that's 240 munitions) should do the same amount of damage like the Henschel HS 129 attack did in Panzer Elite Luftwaffe doctrine performed. It shouldn't target infantry instead just target vehicles only.


I'd agree that at 240 munitions Stuka Close Air should have a similar effectiveness.

However, as it stands, it would be overkill against the Soviets' weaker tanks.

I do agree that if IL-2 sturmovik air support stays as is, then something should be done with Stuka Close Air. But I'd rather see that cost reduced, or it made more effective in side methods, as opposed to straight damage.

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2013, 02:08 AMBlovski


Even then, the 1 hit kill when I'd targeted nowhere near it seems a bit extreme (so, there was no opportunity to move it at all for my opponent). To be honest, with its level of anti-infantry power I don't think it needs to chew out light vehicles *that* quickly.

With the strafes in general, I find the undodgeability and very big target area doesn't really make for decent gameplay, and if an anti-infantry strafe is killing a rocket truck in one shot, that's kind of silly imo. Wouldn't mind if the strafe could 2-hit it or something so you give the Ostheer player time to react with light vehicles even if the smoke is sneakily placed out of LOS.


Perhaps the first run of all strafes should hit exactly where the smoke is?
16 Oct 2013, 03:30 AM
#59
avatar of DanielD

Posts: 783 | Subs: 3

Frankly I liked the way strafe worked in CoH 1 better because you had to aim it, so there was some agency there. Now it's a fire and forget thing which isn't nearly as fun to play against or for the person using it.
17 Oct 2013, 08:16 AM
#60
avatar of link0

Posts: 337

Wow, I've finally got to experience the receiving end of this strafe. Lost a vet 3 Gren, a vet 2 mortar, and a pio squad, from full health, inside my base, to a single pass.
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