Universal carrier rework thread

I don't MIND that it got a nerf to its armour so much. It makes the upgrades a much more suspect deal, but hopefully they will allow it it to have the old values back after it upgrades? I can dream...

It will be really hard to explain new players why armour goes up 'magically' but its a valid point that upgrades are nerfed too. Maybe adding some damage to vickers upgrade could compensate fairly well

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The bit that I object to is that is has less armour, so takes more chip damage, and ALSO they made self repair more expensive for some BS 'gotta trade with fausts' when button and smoke have been unbalanced for so long
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I wouldnt add unnecesary catharsis to justify why changes are made and even less make unsensible arguments about other offtopic unsolved balance issues. The armor chip part can be justified by making the unit less RNG dependent. Since its prone to small arms fire from rifles, wich have low rate of fire, it shouldnt rely too mucho on RNG to calculate dmg.
Also a resource trade is fundamentally important in early game, making it trade with faust seems sensible

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Brits dont start with engineers

Brits can't BUY engineers without unlocking a tech tier
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Why this again? You didnt answer me the last time i suggested to include sappers to the UC cost and bring them both together. I am suspicious about you repeating yourself...

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The latter makes it totally worthless to buy a UC before you have T1. And as an ultra light, there's no point buying it then anyway.

There's so little reason now to ever do anything besides buy an extra section and bolster before you T1.

I dont agree stating that UC is becoming useless, its far from that. The nerf could be intended to force UC closer T1 timing and you are just complainting about it. There is a lot of reasons to keep using UC, only more carefully now. Or you want a UKF noob only faction?

Final words Be open to new changes, they bring fresh gameplay and better balance for all

Which, if you care to read at all is why many of us are asking that it be made attainable as a first step to improving the unit.

I'm aware. Talking about how awesome it is when none of us have ever actually used it however seems a bit off, though.

It's not as small as that because it depends on the range and weapon firing, iirc mg42/Kar 98/mp44 etc all have different pen

Not true, also numbers say otherwise

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I think deeper changes are needed, first the balance team added in tech restrictions for bren then removed them as people found it UP. Then muni for repair and reverted
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Ever wondered why those changes were done in the first place? Luckilly i know. Reverting changes is bad? Did you want it to stay?

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Now armour nerf which imo makes issue two in the OP worse. The unit would be easier to balance locked in T1 with a decent buff.
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I seriously doubt a dedicated team for modding and patching the current game version of CoH2 would have discarded such an easier solution without seeing some serious drawbacks, i mean, who wants to work a lot for free and take the harderst route, for the love of suffering.

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Another suggestion with the Vickers K is giving it old kubel style suppression cone. I think this could work with a fuel cost on UC and add some diversity to UKF playstyle rather than no brainer "put a bigger gun on top for extra DPS" as we currently have.

Kubel cancer was denied for a reason, you want it back but in your favorite faction? Sounds pretty biased to me.

I don't MIND that it got a nerf to its armour so much. It makes the upgrades a much more suspect deal, but hopefully they will allow it it to have the old values back after it upgrades? I can dream.

The bit that I object to is that is has less armour, so takes more chip damage, and ALSO they made self repair more expensive for some BS 'gotta trade with fausts' when button and smoke have been unbalanced for so long

Brits dont start with engineers

Brits can't BUY engineers without unlocking a tech tier

The latter makes it totally worthless to buy a UC before you have T1. And as an ultra light, there's no point buying it then anyway.

There's so little reason now to ever do anything besides buy an extra section and bolster before you T1.

There is still more incentive to use UC. At least you have self-repair, I mean take Kubel for instance. You have to rely on Sturmpios which is not neccessarily a terrible thing but the fact it takes damage more frequently is the annoying part about. Requiring constant repairs. I do not think it should be a problem for UC. It bleeds manpower really well.

If they increase cost of UC repair, it should repair until fully healed. Can interrupt process but no refund then. That would make a lot of sense to be honest! That would be great for UC!

At least with UC, you can without having to wait for an Engineer to repair. Imagine if could do that for Kubel. That would be insane. Except you would have to grind until vet 4 to get self-repair. That would take a while.

GOT idea for Kubel. Remove Vet 1 "Map Hack" (since some say it is OP, and OKW has infared half-track to MAP HACK) for Self-Repair (less OP i suppose, n its a weak vehicle). Should be a bit shitty the self repair speed but does the job kind of thing. Should be worse than the Repair for UC, passive the ability for Kubel or requires activation without cost. Understand what I mean? Vet 4 improves its repair drastically. That would be nice for Kubel.

Kubel cancer was denied for a reason, you want it back but in your favorite faction? Sounds pretty biased to me.

distrofio comment 43 response to SuperHansFan comment 31

That is true. We do not want that even then the Kubel cancer. UC already has with Vickers upgrade suppression ability which is strong. Why ask for more SuperHansFan.

Kubel in contrast has been nerfed for a good reason the suppression arc thingy. Maybe a bit too much tough the past years. Suppression does not come until Vet 5 now (geez, how long would that take?) and you would like to have Suppession arc for UC when they already have the best HMG Vickers.

I think UC armour being nerfed in armour is a good decision. It is still strong as I have said. It still bleeds manpower and now with the change gives the axis a slight better chance to damage a bit more than usual. For something that costs only manpower, surely should not be impenetrable.

Suppression does not come until Vet 5 now (geez, how long would that take?) and you would like to have Suppession arc for UC when they already have the best HMG Vickers.

EVERYBODY DOWN!!! THIS THREAD IS GONNA BLOW!!

EVERYBODY DOWN!!! THIS THREAD IS GONNA BLOW!!

What. Am I wrong?

What is bad about Vickers?

What. Am I wrong?

What is bad about Vickers?

Why do you consider the Vickers to be the best HMG?

The HMG42 is pretty much the best HMG while Vickers, some would argue, fails at its job. They have nearly identical damage profiles (apart from short range), cost the the same and arrive at the same time. So it stands to reason the one that suppresses quicker and insta-rapes lights is better.

HMG42 excels at suppressing mobs quickly and efficiently, has access to magic bullets and supports wehr advances well.

Vickers takes longer to suppress and struggles with suppressing blobs and its vet ability is tied to garrisons which can be a death trap.

There is a reason that MG42's are highly coveted and why vickers are kinda meh.

Why do you consider the Vickers to be the best HMG?

The HMG42 is pretty much the best HMG while Vickers, some would argue, fails at its job. They have nearly identical damage profiles (apart from short range), cost the the same and arrive at the same time. So it stands to reason the one that suppresses quicker and insta-rapes lights is better.

HMG42 excels at suppressing mobs quickly and efficiently, has access to magic bullets and supports wehr advances well.

Vickers takes longer to suppress and struggles with suppressing blobs and its vet ability is tied to garrisons which can be a death trap.

There is a reason that MG42's are highly coveted and why vickers are kinda meh.

I mean Vickers just in comparison does slightly less surpression but it is if anything just as good in doing the job. I find is that it has more or less similar surpression but the main highlight is the fact that fact Vickers excels better in dealing damage better at range in comparison to the MG42.

Vet for Vicker is real good too. The one that increases its arc and range when in structures is quite a huge defensive advantage.

I did not say that MG42 is bad. It is great also. I just think in my experiences Vickers is better since it picks off models way better. MG42 does have "incendary rounds" but there is a delay which is kind of the downside about. Vickers has kind of as it vets increased penetration rounds by default which helps excels against light vehicles and against units in structures. That is upside about it. I think it is also more accurate too.

The only time MG42 ever really kills models is close range. Vickers can do all from long to short but of course the shorter the better. It is my personal experiences that I regard the Vickers as the best HMG. Maybe you think MG42 is. There is nothing wrong in that. It is just personal opinion!

MG42 has slightly better surpression
Vickers does better damage (better DPS) and better at killing models in distances.

You don't buy an MG to do damage you buy it to control infantry via Supression. Also the vickers has a tendency to burst down models which make it have to Reaim. This means it's not supressing.

I mean Vickers just in comparison does slightly less surpression but it is if anything just as good in doing the job. I find is that it has more or less similar surpression but the main highlight is the fact that fact Vickers excels better in dealing damage better at range in comparison to the MG42.

Vet for Vicker is real good too. The one that increases its arc and range when in structures is quite a huge defensive advantage.

I did not say that MG42 is bad. It is great also. I just think in my experiences Vickers is better since it picks off models way better. MG42 does have "incendary rounds" but there is a delay which is kind of the downside about. Vickers has kind of as it vets increased penetration rounds by default which helps excels against light vehicles and against units in structures. That is upside about it. I think it is also more accurate too.

The only time MG42 ever really kills models is close range. Vickers can do all from long to short but of course the shorter the better. It is my personal experiences that I regard the Vickers as the best HMG. Maybe you think MG42 is. There is nothing wrong in that. It is just personal opinion!

MG42 has slightly better surpression
Vickers does better damage (better DPS) and better at killing models in distances.

So you have a perception of the comparative performance but what do the numbers say?

Lets address the notion that the Vickers is a better damage dealer. Like I mentioned before, the HMG42 and Vickers have next to identical dps profiles with the Vickers doing 8.6 dps and the MG42 doing 8.3dps at long range of 40. The Vickers does not have a noticable dps difference (4% difference) apart from short range where the Vickers is actually much better - not the MG42. Long range accuracy is better on the MG42=0.35 vs Vickers=0.24 but Vickers has better burst length with HGM42=1.63 vs Vickers=2.75.

The reason the Vickers is thought to be a damage dealer is due to the slower suppression rate, meaning the suppression damage reduction mechanic does not kick in until typically one model has been dropped. MG42 will however push the target to pinned status much quicker where the damage reduction is goes away and models start dropping like flies again. While the under the Vickers the squads stay in suppressed state for longer and benefit from the damage reduction longer while having the benefit of still being able to move and use abilities.

Speaking on suppression the suppression value on the MG42 is considerably higher and can suppress almost instantly. Base and AOE suppression values are MG42=0.012/0.096 vs Vickers 0.0078/0.0062 though total suppression is dependent on other values like rate of fire, burst length, accuracy(?), etc but I'm not clued up on the specifics (perhaps some one with working knowledge of mechanics can chime in). I can confidently say that the HMG 42 is the best suppression platform, but without actual numbers that's just opinion give so I'll run some tests and get some official suppression time values.
While I'm at it, I'll also test kill times as there seems to be a lot of misconception concerning effective damage of the two HMGs.

Penetration values for the two different HMGs: HMG42=2.2/1.8/1.4 vs Vickers=1.9/1.6/1.3 at short/med/long at vet 1. So the HMG42 has higher base penetration out the gate. At vet3(or 2?) the pen profile for the Vickers is 2.4/2.1/1.7 while the HMG42 is unchanged, so an increase for Vickers but not drastically more than the MG42.

The Magic bullets ability (and yes they very much are magic bullets considering what they do) is one of the most batshit insane abilities in the game: +100% damage and +8 penetration. That is a massive boost to firepower and why the MG42 can kill a UC in a single burst - for just 20 muni and a faster reload animation... Hows it okay that a unit has an ability that can one shot kill something with little to no counter play? The reason it got this over powered was to help counter the sniper clown car and sov windustry T70 rushes from many many moons ago. This is no longer a thing yet this insane ability state still exists.

The only thing the Vickers gets is an increased attack range when garrisoned (15%) as its vet ability - not sure what you mean by increased arc however? I'd take magic bullets any day which completely mulches everything in the MG's firearc that isn't a tank.

The most important role of the HMG is crowd control which its does through suppression so suppressing as many squads as possible, in as short a time frame as possible is what qualifies as a good HMG - not the ability to drop a few models before getting flame naded or lasered down by elite blobs.

Killing a few models might be important to your play style and more power to you but I would argue that numbers don't support the claim that the Vickers is categorically the best HMG. I'll run some test to shed more light on the matter however

That's not how % works.
It will be penetrated 28% more often by pen 1 small arms, more then that when HMG and LMG shoots it.

Yep, I got that backwards.

28% sounds a lot less pointless.

Show Spoiler

Hold your horses. I know there are clear differences between the 2 MGs.

The "Incendary Rounds" does not kill UC in one burst btw. Requires 2-3 bursts. It is definitely good although it causes a delay upon activation, does devastating good damage due to its increased penetration and damage as stated.

MG42 is clearly better in terms of suppression without a doubt!

Vickers is still very good. They are very alike. Vickers Machine Gun serves very well and served well even during WW1. It kind of plays of killing power.

In historical WW2 context. MG42 was undeniably a renowned MG at its time, so it should have this status of having very good suppression. "Buzz Saw".

"Incendiary Rounds" for MG42 and MG34 is a good ability. It is not OP but is is most certainly strong. Every faction has different unique abilities which is the cool part about this game.

Although it may not be for the Allies, I think maybe the USF MG, great damage and suppression but the the tech tree seems kind of muddled and it is more situational, AT seems usually more of the viable choice for USF. It could be argued USF MG is the closest if not, may be even better in suppression and damage overall. Downside is definitely the arc but compensated for its deploy time. Has "Incendiary Rounds" also, more penetration and damage I believe.

It might pause every now and then the bursts with Vickers but so does the MG42. MG42 supresses better due to the fact that its fire rate is incredible matching similarly to real life statistics. That is a nice feature.

I am not arguing that MG42 is worse than the Vickers. I stated that is Vickers is great because why would SuperHansFan on comment 31 want now a UC with an MG supression arc like the old Kubelwagen version. That why I said they have a very good MG already, why have another.

I just think Vickers is a also a great MG

What. Am I wrong?

What is bad about Vickers?

Its suppression isn't great, and its high damage means it usually kills the model it's suppressing, making its suppression even worse.

It's better than the Maxim, but that's about it.

Hold your horses. I know there are clear differences between the 2 MGs.

The "Incendary Rounds" does not kill UC in one burst btw. Requires 2-3 bursts. It is definitely good although it causes a delay upon activation...

Sin e we are already off topic here and talking about 260mp machine guns. I love how the mg42 vet 1 locks it in as the undeniable king of mgs, but the maxims (also requiring vet 1 and a reload) instead of something awesome like "double damage and 10x the pen allowing it to melt light vehicles" gets "if you don't move you can pretend you are an mg34 for a little bit"

Sin e we are already off topic here and talking about 260mp machine guns. I love how the mg42 vet 1 locks it in as the undeniable king of mgs, but the maxims (also requiring vet 1 and a reload) instead of something awesome like "double damage and 10x the pen allowing it to melt light vehicles" gets "if you don't move you can pretend you are an mg34 for a little bit"

I like that idea for Maxim. It could be a little bit more something like that. Gains wider arc and improved surpression for a short period for around 6-8 seconds I believe. That would be a nice ability. Lets see how the applied changes will be for Maxim. Hope its good!

I am thinking also for MG34 since it has also "Incendiary Rounds" should have something else. Maybe what Maxim has "Sustained Fire" would suit it better I believe. Something different too.

Vet for Vicker is real good too. The one that increases its arc and range when in structures is quite a huge defensive advantage.

This also makes a vickers impossible to counter while garrisoned with a sniper.

This also makes a vickers impossible to counter while garrisoned with a sniper.

Well then, good that ost meta vs UKF isn't sniper, but a KV-8 disguised as 251.

Well then, good that ost meta vs UKF isn't sniper, but a KV-8 disguised as 251.

they should increase 251 cost by 40mp. they won't be able to use it as a panic button to bring in their overpowered nazi technology

Yep, I got that backwards.

28% sounds a lot less pointless.

it's 1000% pedantic.

it's a 28% increase on 14%, but it might be more useful to break it down into something else. Instead of 1 of 7 shots penetrating, it's 1 in 6. 10/10 sensational posting