Sections need their out of cover stats reverted

The extra 100 manpower they get is to compensate the manpower cost they added to trucks, can't be more clear and precise.


Let you check post 102

100 manpower added at the same time SWS Trucks became constructible. from 240 to 340. 240 was enough to build your first volks squad or kubel right off the bat.

sWS Half-track

One of the first changes that you will notice is that the sWS Supply Half-track is now a buildable unit with a cost associated to it. This change was made to give value to the sWS Halftrack. Players will now have to invest in producing this unit instead receiving it for free which resulted in players driving their truck forward to push infantry. The added benefits of having this unit buildable is the ability to rebuild the sWS Half-track at will in the event it is destroyed. This will make it less punishing to the players who have lost their sWS Half-track.

Tech Tree

Other vehicles have also been reshuffled among the different base buildings. This will allow more flexibility in playstyle while giving a sense of progression and escalation. The cost of tech structures as well as some units have been changed to account for the increase in fuel and munition income.

http://www.companyofheroes.com/blog/2015/11/27/coh2-okw-revamp

Its also the patch that has changed volks cost from 235 to 250, effectively making it impossible to build new volk squad instantly.

The extra 100 manpower they get is to compensate the manpower cost they added to trucks, can't be more clear and precise.


Let you check post 102

100 manpower added at the same time SWS Trucks became constructible. from 240 to 340. 240 was enough to build your first volks squad or kubel right off the bat.

That sounds simple to fix: cut 100 MP off all the truck setups, remove the extra 100 starting MP.

That weakens OKW's opening, but saves them 100 MP on the SPHQ and makes their sideteching/truck rebuild cost 200 MP instead of 300 MP.

You'd need to adjust Bolster and the M3 Scout Car at the same time. Possibly shift the M3's cost from fuel to manpower and rework Bolster into a 60 MU squad upgrade.

Then if it was only for Volks, they would have giving 10 manpower more, not 100. When they reduced the price of sturm they would have reduce it to 300 from 340. But they didn't because those 100 manpower are only there to cover SwS manpower price.

When they did that they didn't thought about OKW being able to field 4 volks squad so fast and in fact balance was really different back then.
They started to equalize more or less all factions early game some months after with Mr.Smith but they didn't really touch OKW, OKW changes on early game level are all about pzfaut and flamnade delay and cost, not about manpower available early game.

Today the game is really different and what I see is that we're taking a lot of effort to balance SOV/USF/UKF early game because of that than simply bringing back OKW early game power level in line with other and nerf the cheeses options they have that also affect Ostheer.

Then if it was only for Volks, they would have giving 10 manpower more, not 100. When they reduced the price of sturm they would have reduce it to 300 from 340. But they didn't because those 100 manpower are only there to cover SwS manpower price.

When they did that they didn't thought about OKW being able to field 4 volks squad so fast and in fact balance was really different back then.
They started to equalize more or less all factions early game some months after with Mr.Smith but they didn't really touch OKW, OKW changes on early game level are all about pzfaut and flamnade delay and cost, not about manpower available early game.

Today the game is really different and what I see is that we're taking a lot of effort to balance SOV/USF/UKF early game because of that than simply bringing back OKW early game power level in line with other and nerf the cheeses options they have that also affect Ostheer.

Its not just about initial volks, but the timing of 2nd one, 2nd volk would arrive after 2nd rifles otherwise, giving USF edge over OKW when OKW was still supposed to be aggressive early game faction.

And what do you mean about them not touching OKW? The whole patch flipped OKW upside down and strengthened volks to terminator state as they still had shreck, but were now much more combat capable even with lower vet bonuses.

OKW was never able nor intended to filed and deploy a truck instantly, so that 100mp does absolutely nothing for their tech when they need to get 40 fuel first for med truck, only reason for that 100mp to be justified as "truck bonus" would be if OKW was allowed to field a truck instantly, like it arrived pre-tech revamp, which clearly is not the case due to zero starting fuel and 15fuel truck cost.

Its not just about initial volks, but the timing of 2nd one, 2nd volk would arrive after 2nd rifles otherwise, giving USF edge over OKW when OKW was still supposed to be aggressive early game faction.

And what do you mean about them not touching OKW? The whole patch flipped OKW upside down and strengthened volks to terminator state as they still had shreck, but were now much more combat capable even with lower vet bonuses.

OKW was never able nor intended to filed and deploy a truck instantly, so that 100mp does absolutely nothing for their tech when they need to get 40 fuel first for med truck, only reason for that 100mp to be justified as "truck bonus" would be if OKW was allowed to field a truck instantly, like it arrived pre-tech revamp, which clearly is not the case due to zero starting fuel and 15fuel truck cost.

Not saying otherwise. 2nd volks arriving after 2nd rifle is something to put in perspective with already having a Sturm on the field.
You also nailed the issue with the SWS, additional 100 manpower were a compensation for SWS truck cost but doesn't really make sense at the end and only give OKW early game more resources to pressure their opponent.

What I meant is you can look at patch notes, OKW early game balance decision are mostly about cost and timing for pfaust and flamnade and fuel for the first truck.

Then cutting 100 manpower from OKW start is a saying, it can be 50 or 80 and adjust SWS cost accordingly if it suit better then early game balance.

I'd be in favor of locking Bolster behind tech - I was even considering making a thread suggesting T2 lock as an option. I just feel like the combination of the early power spike and fast teching of the Brits can make it difficult to counter. As far as I can see early bolster and ignoring weapon racks is very meta to the point of suggesting bolster might be too good.

Speaking of which, Brens and Grenades would still provide early upgrades for Brits so I don't see a reason why Bolster *has* to be available early for them to be a competitive faction. Likewise Brit fast teching means that if a player wanted to fast bolster then it's not out of the question to rush T2 and then bolster before getting first tank. That way a Brit player has to choose between bolster and fast AEC and not just bolster and then immediately get AEC to shut down light vehicles that are primary counter. Just my gut feeling after playing a lot of OST recently and getting matched with a LOT Brits.

Speaking of which, Brens and Grenades would still provide early upgrades for Brits so I don't see a reason why Bolster *has* to be available early for them to be a competitive faction.

One word.

Snipers.

One word.

Snipers.

Good thing there's no Axis faction that only has 4 man squads that could suffer from an early sniper, and has to suffer with it for the rest of the game.

And it's a good thing Brits don't have a super useful early vehicle that can drive off snipers.

Good thing there's no Axis faction that only has 4 man squads that could suffer from an early sniper, and has to suffer with it for the rest of the game.

And it's a good thing Brits don't have a super useful early vehicle that can drive off snipers.

Brit squads are more expensive and have huge moving accuracy penalties. The bren carrier is also turretles, sort of slow and doesn't do all that much damage.

The brits are more vulnerable to early snipers and that weakness is explicitly why bolster is available early.


Bonus points: they also have no mortar and no halfrack, both helpful when handling sniper play. They also have to tech to get an engineer squad so they don't even have a cheap capping unit.

Not saying otherwise. 2nd volks arriving after 2nd rifle is something to put in perspective with already having a Sturm on the field.
You also nailed the issue with the SWS, additional 100 manpower were a compensation for SWS truck cost but doesn't really make sense at the end and only give OKW early game more resources to pressure their opponent.

What I meant is you can look at patch notes, OKW early game balance decision are mostly about cost and timing for pfaust and flamnade and fuel for the first truck.

Then cutting 100 manpower from OKW start is a saying, it can be 50 or 80 and adjust SWS cost accordingly if it suit better then early game balance.

IIRC they tested with 240mp and they were simple too weak early on against the meta of that time. It's not just the SwS but a sum of factors.
Been able to build a Sturm if they wanted, not just a Volks for example.

One word.

Snipers.

One Word and a half.

Counter-sniper

For real, bolstered UKF shitstomps OST grens BUT a single OST sniper is able to fend off UKF un-bolstered IS?
Don't start cherry picking and also UKF dominates mid game with AEC until P4s are able to be fielded, if so.

If someone mentions bolster is necessary to fight off rushing volks I'm going to lose my shit

The bren carrier is also turretles, sort of slow and doesn't do all that much damage.

Its mobile enough and does enough damage to push away a sniper or at least kill the grens covering it.

If a sniper kills a model and then the Carrier kills a model, the sniper is effectively countered from a strategic standpoint.

Furthermore its not like OKW needs a bolster to deal with snipers as their options with dealing with one are much worse.

Brit squads are more expensive and have huge moving accuracy penalties. The bren carrier is also turretles, sort of slow and doesn't do all that much damage.

The brits are more vulnerable to early snipers and that weakness is explicitly why bolster is available early.


Bonus points: they also have no mortar and no halfrack, both helpful when handling sniper play. They also have to tech to get an engineer squad so they don't even have a cheap capping unit.

That information is false:
Bren carrier has one of the highest far DPS. It is actually 163% more DPS then kubel and remain superior to kubel up to range 19.

And that is without the bren upgrade.

In addition it acceleration and rotation are superior to kubel and only its top speed is lower.

As for the turret M3 does not have, Kubel does not have and WC51 does not have one.

One Word and a half.

Counter-sniper

For real, bolstered UKF shitstomps OST grens BUT a single OST sniper is able to fend off UKF un-bolstered IS?
Don't start cherry picking and also UKF dominates mid game with AEC until P4s are able to be fielded, if so.

If someone mentions bolster is necessary to fight off rushing volks I'm going to lose my shit

In current meta volks ARE better, four squads all with StG, free nades and snare + spec ops nades for free wipes most games.

Then luch and puma which is a much better force than 4 vanilla Tommy, AEC and brencarrier.

Hence why people bolster, because if you don't fork out for early Tommy upgrades you will be seal clubbed by cheaper and better StG volks.

In current meta volks ARE better, four squads all with StG, free nades and snare + spec ops nades for free wipes most games.
...

All the scenario you just described is well past 5-10 min mark. That way a lot of time of well placed IS fighting back and forth in equal condition as volks.
The combination of "free" nades and spec ops ones is just cherry pick, hence discarded for the more general approach discussion, and even could be considered L2P given more details. They also delay more volks stgs, so double no to what you just said.

And you missed the point, didn't mention why bolster is Neccesary

EDIT: Pumas and AEC were not the point also and they have it's own balance already on are totally off topipc

In current meta volks ARE better, four squads all with StG, free nades and snare + spec ops nades for free wipes most games.

Then luch and puma which is a much better force than 4 vanilla Tommy, AEC and brencarrier.

Volks are cheaper, they are not better. One has to be braindead to let 4 volks advance across open cover past 4 tommies and a suppressing bren carrier, then eat a flame nade, and then eat a spec ops nade to loose a squad.

Also it is a bit weird how two vehicles with more expensive tech (with lower starting resources) might be better than one vehicle, hmmmmm I wonder why.

That information is false:
Bren carrier has one of the highest far DPS. It is actually 163% more DPS then kubel and remain superior to kubel up to range 19.

And that is without the bren upgrade.

In addition it acceleration and rotation are superior to kubel and only its top speed is lower.

As for the turret M3 does not have, Kubel does not have and WC51 does not have one.

Do you know the arc of each MG?

After giving sappers snares, the section faces less light vehicles which is basically a buff to their performance, but nothing was taken in return. Section were allowed to be op vs infantry because they could be countered by light vehicles VERY easily. Now Brits have hands down the EASIEST time countering lights. There are plenty of relics in the Brit faction. The only reason why the reinforce cost is less than gren despite man-for-man completely dominating grens is the silly excuse of the Ost sniper doing its job. Now with the Brit sniper coming in at around 5min, I think it's fair that the reinforce cost be increased to 30, and that may still be a bargain compared to what grens are getting. But I know the allied players on this forum will go batshit crazy that a unit completely superior to another now costs the same to reinforce as that unit (allied players logic.)

So my proposal is to simply revert the out of cover buffs that were given to the sections.

If u wanna use an a-move blob, play USF or OKW. Brits are supposed to play defensive early game but the bolster comes so early and the out of cover buffs allow Brits to be an offensive faction. 5man section just one-ups all other infantry. Honestly the timing for the bolster should also be looked into, but like I said, it would be very "triggering" to certain players. So I want to keep any changes modest and stick to reverting the out of cover buffs.

Your suggested changes were tried and then reverted in testmod a year ago, mostly because 280mp sections got walked over by volks and even ostruppen.

Constantly dodging infiltration nades is tiresome enough with 5 men let alone 4. Then as others have mentioned 5man is a countermeasure Vs wehr sniper cheese. Locking it behind T3 would just make wehr snipers a no brainer unit to punish Brits with.

You can build your own (slower firing) sniper but wehr can pump out ostruppen or doctrines with 5man gren. You wouldn't be able to counter that like for like... So how is this fair?

I don't think anyone doubts grens lose 1vs1 but some of the overreaction in this thread is priceless, you would think people are talking about Obers Vs Soviet pios here.

As others have mentioned with the MG42 and grens vs cons and maxim some units are just slightly better. Brits have no AT grenade on mainlines, non-doc assault inf, flamers, early mortar or smoke. They get upgrades like bolster that buff IS instead.

If you nerf bolster then you would have to swap at made from sapper to Tommy, add a mortar, non doc flamers to make up for that loss of aggression. Otherwise you'll have an OKW stompfest like testmod a year ago.

And that's how you spot a troll post.
OKM is not the problem here, but you just used it as a escape goat. Totally off topic.

One word.

Snipers.

Maybe in team games if someone goes 2X sniper and you have to avoid having to retreat after one volley but if you need a 5th man to avoid sniper wipes then you're doing it wrong. Either way, I personally don't feel like the performance of early 5 man squads justifies making life easier against 1 other unit.