Sections need their out of cover stats reverted

After giving sappers snares, the section faces less light vehicles which is basically a buff to their performance, but nothing was taken in return. Section were allowed to be op vs infantry because they could be countered by light vehicles VERY easily. Now Brits have hands down the EASIEST time countering lights. There are plenty of relics in the Brit faction. The only reason why the reinforce cost is less than gren despite man-for-man completely dominating grens is the silly excuse of the Ost sniper doing its job. Now with the Brit sniper coming in at around 5min, I think it's fair that the reinforce cost be increased to 30, and that may still be a bargain compared to what grens are getting. But I know the allied players on this forum will go batshit crazy that a unit completely superior to another now costs the same to reinforce as that unit (allied players logic.)

So my proposal is to simply revert the out of cover buffs that were given to the sections.

If u wanna use an a-move blob, play USF or OKW. Brits are supposed to play defensive early game but the bolster comes so early and the out of cover buffs allow Brits to be an offensive faction. 5man section just one-ups all other infantry. Honestly the timing for the bolster should also be looked into, but like I said, it would be very "triggering" to certain players. So I want to keep any changes modest and stick to reverting the out of cover buffs.

I wouldnt mind the reinforce costs.
But otherwise as long as OKW gets sturms that trash everything and Volks in their current state, no.

What was the reasoning for sturms to be like they are and get free one at the start again by the way since theres no real reduced resources anymore by the way?

Also dont Tommies have a debuff when out of cover and normal when in cover since they nerfed the cover buffs?
You are also getting good PG buffs alongside other goodies, Ostheer doesnt need to be a Tier-SS+ terminator faction

UKF needs bolster to be delayed behind tech. Giving snare to royal engineers allowed UKF to no longer have to rush AEC 24/7. Now UKF players can safely go bolster without being punished by early light vehicle rushes, making them able to dominate early infantry engagements with barely any bleed.

UKF needs bolster to be delayed behind tech. Giving snare to royal engineers allowed UKF to no longer have to rush AEC 24/7. Now UKF players can safely go bolster without being punished by early light vehicle rushes, making them able to dominate early infantry engagements with barely any bleed.

Exactly, every UKF player goes for 5min bolster because of that. Now nothing short of a double rifle grenade or three squads on the retreat path can wipe a 5man section while it's always easy to wipe Ost squads since rifles and penals have semi autos and sections just bleed grens hard that it feels like you got a unit wiped. UKF players don't have to care about unit preservation because of this.


OKW as usual fares better vs allied blobs because u can kinda blob decently well with volks against rifle blobs and sometimes penal blobs, but u can only delay a 5man section blob, not that the cheaper volks should have a chance against a bolstered blob.

Ost has no counters. The mg gunner just gets instagibbed by a blob and even if u manage to suppress one squad, that squad takes little damage due to 0.8 RA and can sit there all day till another squad comes to flank. U can't protect mgs with grens when the section guns down the mg crew faster than the grens can force back the section. The supressed section then unsupresses then the 2 somewhat less healthy sections stop the remaining gren squad while the mg has already fallen back to base. A sound defense shattered easily.

Can people seriously look into the volks? 5th man for 10mp over grens, and volks get 0.9 RA at vet1 so even the RA advantage grens get over volks is SUPER temporary. Hence volks are a way better version of grens. It is literally the reason why sections are op and penals are borderline op. Make volks 260mp and lock sandbags behind vet1 or 2 so u can't dig in on enemy cutoff right away.

Every allied player says lmg42 >2 stg upgrade. WRONG. Yes, on pure dps, lmg is easily better and yes it targets one model at a time, but it doesn't fire on the move, has less dps in close, which makes it less useful when defending rifle/penal charges, and it can be dropped for the enemy. So considering the practicality, I don't think there's a clear winner.

Can people seriously look into the volks? 5th man for 10mp over grens, and volks get 0.9 RA at vet1 so even the RA advantage grens get over volks is SUPER temporary. Hence volks are a way better version of grens. It is literally the reason why sections are op and penals are borderline op. Make volks 260mp and lock sandbags behind vet1 or 2 so u can't dig in on enemy cutoff right away.

Every allied player says lmg42 >2 stg upgrade. WRONG. Yes, on pure dps, lmg is easily better and yes it targets one model at a time, but it doesn't fire on the move, has less dps in close, which makes it less useful when defending rifle/penal charges, and it can be dropped for the enemy. So considering the practicality, I don't think there's a clear winner.

Are you a partisan? Because thats a great derailment you went for.

Can people seriously look into the volks? 5th man for 10mp over grens, and volks get 0.9 RA at vet1 so even the RA advantage grens get over volks is SUPER temporary. Hence volks are a way better version of grens. It is literally the reason why sections are op and penals are borderline op. Make volks 260mp and lock sandbags behind vet1 or 2 so u can't dig in on enemy cutoff right away.

Every allied player says lmg42 >2 stg upgrade. WRONG. Yes, on pure dps, lmg is easily better and yes it targets one model at a time, but it doesn't fire on the move, has less dps in close, which makes it less useful when defending rifle/penal charges, and it can be dropped for the enemy. So considering the practicality, I don't think there's a clear winner.

Volks and Grens are completly different after recieving their upgrades. It´s like comparing Bar Riflemen to LMG Sections. One is a mobile medium range unit the other is a stationary long range unit.

section got nerfed with the bren nerf.
@IncendiaryRounds hwo can you say Tommies are op without played a single game with UKF?

Tommies already bleed you very hard in middle to late game do to the fact brits have no hard AI light tank.

Volks and Grens are completly different after recieving their upgrades. It´s like comparing Bar Riflemen to LMG Sections. One is a mobile medium range unit the other is a stationary long range unit.

Um both volks and grens are best at max range. It's just that stg volks aren't entirely useless on the move,and lmg grens ARE exactly useless on the move. G43 makes grens behave like stg volks.

section got nerfed with the bren nerf.
@IncendiaryRounds hwo can you say Tommies are op without played a single game with UKF?

Tommies already bleed you very hard in middle to late game do to the fact brits have no hard AI light tank.

The problem isn't even teh late game, sections already bleed u quite hard in the early game when they get bolster.

OKW as usual fares better vs allied blobs because u can kinda blob decently well with volks against rifle blobs and sometimes penal blobs, but u can only delay a 5man section blob, not that the cheaper volks should have a chance against a bolstered blob.

Ost has no counters. The mg gunner just gets instagibbed by a blob and even if u manage to suppress one squad, that squad takes little damage due to 0.8 RA and can sit there all day till another squad comes to flank. U can't protect mgs with grens when the section guns down the mg crew faster than the grens can force back the section. The supressed section then unsupresses then the 2 somewhat less healthy sections stop the remaining gren squad while the mg has already fallen back to base. A sound defense shattered easily.

It's Ostheer that has the counters against UKF, while OKW has to suffer. Ostheer has all the right answers against UKF:

1. Osttruppen -> Can trade favorably with Tommies (even if bolstered).
2. Sniper -> Bleeds Tommies, UKF will give away countersniper if he has no bolster before minute 5.
3. 251 -> 1 minute timeframe to push back before AEC.
4. 222 -> Comes early enough to prevent AEC from dominating you, can win against AEC if spammed.
5. Tellers -> Can be spammed everywhere if you went Osttruppen, best bet against Valentine.
6. Ost P4 -> Comes early, even if you made multiple light vehicles.

Add an MG42 and a Pak40 and you're pretty much set.

OKW has it far harder.

After giving sappers snares, the section faces less light vehicles which is basically a buff to their performance, but nothing was taken in return. Section were allowed to be op vs infantry because they could be countered by light vehicles VERY easily. Now Brits have hands down the EASIEST time countering lights. There are plenty of relics in the Brit faction. The only reason why the reinforce cost is less than gren despite man-for-man completely dominating grens is the silly excuse of the Ost sniper doing its job. Now with the Brit sniper coming in at around 5min, I think it's fair that the reinforce cost be increased to 30, and that may still be a bargain compared to what grens are getting. But I know the allied players on this forum will go batshit crazy that a unit completely superior to another now costs the same to reinforce as that unit (allied players logic.)

So my proposal is to simply revert the out of cover buffs that were given to the sections.

If u wanna use an a-move blob, play USF or OKW. Brits are supposed to play defensive early game but the bolster comes so early and the out of cover buffs allow Brits to be an offensive faction. 5man section just one-ups all other infantry. Honestly the timing for the bolster should also be looked into, but like I said, it would be very "triggering" to certain players. So I want to keep any changes modest and stick to reverting the out of cover buffs.

Not sure if i follow you but "IS" gets only debuffs out of cover and the Royal engineers get the buffs when in cover. I don't think that the lowering of the debuffs "broke" them nor that increasing it would make a change.

These are the changes to IS:

Show Spoiler

IF AND ONLY IF, changes are needed:

-Check if the Bolster timing is what spikes them during early mid game.
-Increase squad popcap after purchasing Bolster by 1. This would put them at exactly their original popcap when they are 5 man.
-If Bolster is problematic for timing, move it further down on the tech unlock.

It's Ostheer that has the counters against UKF, while OKW has to suffer. Ostheer has all the right answers against UKF:

1. Osttruppen -> Can trade favorably with Tommies (even if bolstered).
2. Sniper -> Bleeds Tommies, UKF will give away countersniper if he has no bolster before minute 5.
3. 251 -> 1 minute timeframe to push back before AEC.
4. 222 -> Comes early enough to prevent AEC from dominating you, can win against AEC if spammed.
5. Tellers -> Can be spammed everywhere if you went Osttruppen, best bet against Valentine.
6. Ost P4 -> Comes early, even if you made multiple light vehicles.

Add an MG42 and a Pak40 and you're pretty much set.

OKW has it far harder.

This x100

Ost players have no right to complain about UKF when they have so many ways to abuse UKF.

It's Ostheer that has the counters against UKF, while OKW has to suffer. Ostheer has all the right answers against UKF:

1. Osttruppen -> Can trade favorably with Tommies (even if bolstered).
2. Sniper -> Bleeds Tommies, UKF will give away countersniper if he has no bolster before minute 5.
3. 251 -> 1 minute timeframe to push back before AEC.
4. 222 -> Comes early enough to prevent AEC from dominating you, can win against AEC if spammed.
5. Tellers -> Can be spammed everywhere if you went Osttruppen, best bet against Valentine.
6. Ost P4 -> Comes early, even if you made multiple light vehicles.

Add an MG42 and a Pak40 and you're pretty much set.

OKW has it far harder.

I actually do go for the Ostruppen sniper build vs Brits. It's highly map dependant. Some of the open maps like crossing, crossroads, don't have enough cover. And somehow Brits get sandbags from the start while a fucking weak doctrinal ability like sandbags is ONE CP for ostruppen. LOL. And u may not be able to afford an mg after getting a sniper. And the CQC maps are crap for snipers. 222 is not that great anymore vs Brits due to snare. They already get 3 shotted quickly by AEC even the faust won't be able to save it many times. 1 minute free roam for 251 isn't worth 90 munis. And how is Ost p4 a way to beat the Brits, crom comes just as fast or even faster.

UKF spams Infantry Sections with grenades for the two reasons.

The first is because Bolster is a global upgrade. You get a bigger return on it the more squads you build.

The second is because UKF needs a ton of squads on the field to flank HMGs. Have you ever tried playing UKF without Section Spam? It's not pretty.

The solution seems simple to me.

Firstly, give UKF a mortar. If you deprive a faction of basic shit like that, you prevent it from playing normal combined arms. Of course it's going to resort to cheese.

Secondly, rework Bolster into a per-squad upgrade like Veteran Squad Leaders. That'll make the cost of bolstering scale to the number of squads you build.

Can people seriously look into the volks? 5th man for 10mp over grens, and volks get 0.9 RA at vet1 so even the RA advantage grens get over volks is SUPER temporary. Hence volks are a way better version of grens. It is literally the reason why sections are op and penals are borderline op. Make volks 260mp and lock sandbags behind vet1 or 2 so u can't dig in on enemy cutoff right away.

Every allied player says lmg42 >2 stg upgrade. WRONG. Yes, on pure dps, lmg is easily better and yes it targets one model at a time, but it doesn't fire on the move, has less dps in close, which makes it less useful when defending rifle/penal charges, and it can be dropped for the enemy. So considering the practicality, I don't think there's a clear winner.

nah people say BAR > 2 stg, and it's 100% truth BAR has more dps and occupy only 1 sloot

Secondly, rework Bolster into a per-squad upgrade like Veteran Squad Leaders. That'll make the cost of bolstering scale to the number of squads you build.

Great idea. Don't forget the bren carrier vs mgs. U don't always use sections to flank em. And Vickers > 42 so u can outdps the 42 and send it packing first.

UKF has been on a long road from being a gimmick faction to a normal one; it's inevitable that there are balance issues (up and down) as the OP stuff they leaned on is pulled out from under them, and standard tools are added making other OP stuff unnecessary.

Putting Bolster behind T1 sounds fair, and any tweaks made in the name of build diversity sound good to me.

UKF has been on a long road from being a gimmick faction to a normal one; it's inevitable that there are balance issues (up and down) as the OP stuff they leaned on is pulled out from under them, and standard tools are added making other OP stuff unnecessary.

Putting Bolster behind T1 sounds fair, and any tweaks made in the name of build diversity sound good to me.

It effectively is behind T1.
It delays significantly AEC and you need that ASAP, if you go for bolster first, ost will steamroll you with FHT.

Um both volks and grens are best at max range. It's just that stg volks aren't entirely useless on the move,and lmg grens ARE exactly useless on the move. G43 makes grens behave like stg volks.

Volks are used best in close range vs LMG riflemen and infantry sections with or without LMGs. They are also better in mid range vs double bar riflemen because STGs dont buff max range dps of Volks while Bars have significantly more DPS at max range compared to standard rifles. So no they are not both best at max range.


As a comparison of max range DPS and medium range DPS of units:

max range:

Double Bar Riflemen -> 12,954
Penals -> 10,848
2x Bren Infantry Sections -> 22,394
STG Volks max range DPS -> 8,292

At range 15:

Double Bar Riflemen-> 22,1
Penals-> 22,314
2x Bren Infantry Sections-> 23,056
STG Volks max range DPS -> 20,254