Sniper Retreat

The current implementation for sniper countering is a set of accuracy bonuses on a specific set of light vehicles. They all get a 50% accuracy boost vs snipers. Which vehicles? You'll have to look at the patch notes, because the game won't tell you which vehicles are magically better against retreating snipers.

I suggest we scrap that system entirely and remove the received accuracy bonus snipers get on retreat instead. That big RA bonus makes losing your sniper super-random: it might go down in one shot, it might magically dodge all the machine gun volleys being fired into the back of its skull.

This also means those vehicles won't laser down a non-retreating sniper. Preserving a sniper then becomes much more about protecting it and less about praying to the dice god then walking in circles around your base structure to mess up that 221's pathing.

This also means you don't need a silver bullet vehicle or a sniper to kill a sniper any more. Flanking it with infantry might actually work for once.

Which do you prefer? The current silver-bullet-vehicle approach, or removing the received accuracy bonus snipers get when they retreat?

The current implementation for sniper countering is a set of accuracy bonuses on a specific set of light vehicles.

Actually, its only half of the changes.

Sniper has target size changed to 1.15, which makes them extremely easy to hit by every single small arms in the game, even ost pios will deal noticable damage at long range to them.
The vehicles with buffed accuracy, especially 222 just instakill them with 1.15 target size and their own 150% sniper accuracy for coax mgs.

You manage to sneak any squad behind the sniper, that sniper is 100% dead, retreat or not.

You manage to sneak any squad behind the sniper, that sniper is 100% dead, retreat or not.

I'd be very happy if that were the case, but that only happens if the enemy forgets to hit Retreat.

The second they do, Snipey's made of teflon. It can quite reliably get back to its base retreating across half a 1v1 map with a 221 firing into its back.

The problem is, you can't flank snipers on certain maps, and the silver bullet formula sucks, but more importantly, 2 factions just don't have snipers XD

Iv noticed a lot of inconsistencies in the 222 chasing retreating snipers with little or no damage done to it. Then you chase back into base and sniper circles HQ and gets away because of guards/cons/penals. I would vote in increase damage to sniper on retreat.

Iv noticed a lot of inconsistencies in the 222 chasing retreating snipers with little or no damage done to it. Then you chase back into base and sniper circles HQ and gets away because of guards/cons/penals. I would vote in increase damage to sniper on retreat.

It's because retreating units get a boost to received accuracy: each shot has a lower chance to hit them.

The chasing vehicle is essentially rolling a dice over and over trying to roll a six.

It's because retreating units get a boost to received accuracy: each shot has a lower chance to hit them.

The chasing vehicle is essentially rolling a dice over and over trying to roll a six.

Which is complete bs. Using a .222 to get a sniper is a vital point in the game. Especially because of a lurking t70/AEC which is not far from being fielded. Iv seen far too many bs chase downs just to lose it. And that was my only chance early game, as OST, investing in a sniper just to counter snipe is dangerous due to the tier 2 needed for AT. I don't know what time it is in game but I do know it makes a difference. (2v2 speaking)

I'm gonna quote myself on sniper survivability from other topic
https://www.coh2.org/topic/85570/convince-me-that-it-s-a-bad-idea-with-a-1-sniper-limit/post/721565
(btw you might be interested to check it out - we had nice discussion with Joshua about snipers and Lago has summed up good options to treat this problem)

I also think it was a mistake to make Soviet sniper 1 man.
It goes against CoH series cornerstones - unit preservation and veterancy.

They had to go completely opposite and make all snipers 82 hp 2-man squads, increase recieved accuracy and increase reinforcement cost AND TIME.

This way countersniping would be still viable, but recieving side won't instantly lose their MP investment together with accumulated veterancy.
Forcing sniper away with LV and killing 1 model would be a good result too.

I wonder, why we got rid of precision shots, demo charges, restricted mines to 2 model kill max in order to reduce squad wipes, but then did U-turn and decided that wiping through countersniping is ok.

I also wonder why there is general consensus that it is ok to wipe a 360 MP unit (that requires additional MP for screening to use) with a flank or LV chase but it is not ok to wipe 240MP grens? (so much discussion on survivability of grens and adding 5th model)

I also wonder why there is general consensus that it is ok to wipe a 360 MP unit (that requires additional MP for screening to use) with a flank or LV chase but it is not ok to wipe 240MP grens? (so much discussion on survivability of grens and adding 5th model)

Because normal squads bleed.

Snipers are all or nothing. It's an extreme risk-reward unit: if you don't throw all your energy into pulverising it the moment it shows its face, the opponent gets the reward.

It'd be a different story if they cost manpower to heal.

It'd be a different story if they cost manpower to heal.

I really like this idea. However, one thing that needs to be taken into account is the micro tax. The player using the sniper has to invest a lot of energy into this one unit, which can make his responses around the battlefield much slower.

Because normal squads bleed.

Snipers are all or nothing. It's an extreme risk-reward unit: if you don't throw all your energy into pulverising it the moment it shows its face, the opponent gets the reward.

It'd be a different story if they cost manpower to heal.

I probably didn't expressed my thought well.

The question I wanted to raise is why reduce models in sniper squad (which is basically "removing MP bleed") and then ask for increase model count in other squad with completely opposite reasoning?

I really like this idea. However, one thing that needs to be taken into account is the micro tax. The player using the sniper has to invest a lot of energy into this one unit, which can make his responses around the battlefield much slower.

This idea isn't New and is called "reinforcement cost". You just need to add 2nd model while tuning rec acc to leave EHP the same.

I probably didn't expressed my thought well.

The question I wanted to raise is why reduce models in sniper squad (which is basically "removing MP bleed") and then ask for increase model count in other squad with completely opposite reasoning?

I don't follow. Which squad am I asking for more models in?

I really like this idea. However, one thing that needs to be taken into account is the micro tax. The player using the sniper has to invest a lot of energy into this one unit, which can make his responses around the battlefield much slower.

Ideally, you'd rework the unit entirely into something with a much lower risk and a much lower reward.

One radical thing you could do is make them subject to cover rules.

50% chance to miss versus cover, 50% damage reduction vs models in heavy cover.

Then slash their cost from 360 MP to only 240.



Makes sense, right? What do you do when attacked by a sniper? Get behind something.

That effectively turns the sniper into an anti-mortar. It retains full effectiveness versus uncovered units. This makes it strong against support weapons (what it's ostensibly for) and very strong against blobs.

For the player with the sniper, it's a 240 MP unit. A wipe hurts, but it's not the catastrophic kick in the economy losing a 360 MP sniper is.

For the player without the sniper, rushing an LV to wipe it is no longer the only option. You've now got another strategy. Just take cover.

It also adds some depth to countersniping: it's only a guaranteed kill against an A-moved sniper who's out in the open.

The more I think about this idea, the more I like it. It might turn snipers into a fun support unit rather than a strategy unto itself.

I don't follow. Which squad am I asking for more models in?

Not you. It is community and this idea has manifested in, for example, in 5-man squad upgrade option in certain Wehrmacht commander while 2-man 64 hp per model sniper squad that was susceptible to bleed was reworked to single wipe-resistant 82 hp model.

I really like your sniper idea btw.

That's a great idea for snipers!

A couple issues, though-
-The extreme RNG in light cover. What if the half accuracy were swapped for half damage? The "unit sniped" message would only appear on kills, also.
-Introducing a miss chance to snipers would be complicated since they rely on high accuracy to cancel out any recieved accuracy their target has.

So, maybe the change can't be as elegant as you suggested, but that's a very interesting direction to take the unit.

That's a great idea for snipers!

A couple issues, though-
-The extreme RNG in light cover. What if the half accuracy were swapped for half damage? The "unit sniped" message would only appear on kills, also.
-Introducing a miss chance to snipers would be complicated since they rely on high accuracy to cancel out any recieved accuracy their target has.

So, maybe the change can't be as elegant as you suggested, but that's a very interesting direction to take the unit.

I've forked this off into its own thread. https://www.coh2.org/topic/89693/sniper-cover-concept

Snipers used to have miss chances versus garrisons, and Aimed Shot has a 50% chance to miss retreating troops, so there are probably mechanisms to achieve it.