Soviet General Faction Changes - New cmdr mod 5.0

General consensus is, T4 is perfect for con upgrade as:

-provides alternative option to rushing T-70(not really atm, but theoretically)
-still can arrive relatively fast
-doesn't impact early game, where cons are ok-ish

As a Soviet player I always dreaded cons vs okw, since around the 5 min mark every volk squad has STGs and without ppsh on every cons there is no contest. I fear this upgrade would come too late at T4. Always talking regarding 1v1s.

One of the reasons weapon upgrades aren’t being considered is that the only weapons you can give them are SVTs. Sure the DP 28 doesn’t match LMGs, but you have a 6 man squad with cheap reinforce, high utility and reasonable veterancy that you will end up with very tedious LMG wars with Ostheer and it stacks well with their ability to build cover.

We’re seeing what can be done first with Conscripts to reinforce their support and ability to out attrition the enemy. We had other ideas, though, for the upgrade like a cover bonus to reinforce their role of the unit wanting to fight from cover late game and be a unit to inefficiently attack into without support.

Personally I feel Conscripts should be more like Ostruppen, 200 MP, 15 MP reinforce and the requirement to be in cover to gain an accuracy bonus.

I think there is a general consensus about T4 being too late for this. T3 seems reasonable.

The danger in that is that it would instantly give T3 a huge power spike, as it also gives the T-70 and Soviets can usually float enough munitions to instantly upgrade all their Cons squads.

I don't really see T3 happening unless it's a global upgrade or unlock (side tech) that has its own MP/FU cost and build time, so it would come at tier "3.5". With T4 giving it for free like now.

The danger in that is that it would give T3 a huge power spike, as it also gives the T-70 and Soviets can usually float enough munitions to instantly upgrade all their Cons squads.

That's a fair point. Not much else you can really do without fiddling with the Soviet tech structure.

That's a fair point. Not much else you can really do without fiddling with the Soviet tech structure.

As long as T3 and T4 give vital upgrades I’m happy. I hate seeing people stall for heavies in 1v1s.

As long as T3 and T4 give vital upgrades I’m happy. I hate seeing people stall for heavies in 1v1s.

Heavy stalling needs to go. Soviet is the worst offender, but the heavy stalls in all factions are unwarranted punishments for teching.

If conscripts get a 7 entities I would suggest grenadiers get a similar upgrade with BP3 to 5 with the same rules applying.

Played a 1v1 with the new commanders, refer to the replays section if you wanna see it. It's on crossroads vs Ost and lasts approx 15 mins.

Overall I never reached the 7 man cons because I was getting slaughtered in the early game. Vet 0 cons are pathetic and deal no damage, so it's hard to vet. I will say though that after I was forced to drop SVTs I kinda turned things around and evened the game, though it was too much of a lead for the opponent by that point. SVT cons are actually competent, they can damage opposing squads and tend to vet up nicely, so I definitely give them my vote, though I'd be happier with 4 SVTs instead of 3.

Airborne guards I tried the ppsh upgrade and they played like slightly worse Shock troops, so I guess you can get both long and short range specialists why is nice.

The Dshka is really really really nice and at a fair price, I was really happy with its suppression and damage, especially the vet 1 sprint.

My opponent used the Ostwind, which dealt a ton of damage. I will definitely be using it in the future a lot. Only change I personally would make would be to make it 100 fuel, at 90 it's a bargain atm.

Overall I love the commander, however at the current state of cons you cannot afford to start with them, as it dooms you. They need better combat capabilities. The one positive is that due to higher output from SVTs you can afford a penal start then make a conscript squad or two later, which seems viable, but is limited to this commander and generally for a bit more MP and no added muni you can get penals which are just better.

If conscripts get a 7 entities I would suggest grenadiers get a similar upgrade with BP3 to 5 with the same rules applying.

That would be downgrade, and it was already tried. 5-man upgrade didnt work for grens and grens had far higher impact of fifth man even though it's obviously worse than lmg. This is why 7 man conscripts are meme, if fifth man wasnt worth it for grens without g43 and veterancy buffs there is zero chance it working out for cons

I think the problem with cons lies in this simple question: Can a cons strat work without being crushed early game before 7 men upgrade (which i actually think worthy) arrive ?

In a perfect World early cons are supported by maxims, but again maxims are problematic to use.

Still, i think that by changing Maxims we can help it.

Can we modify maxim as a SLOW-to set up mg and slow to rotate to avoid cancer spam strats but buff its suppression a bit ?

One of the reasons weapon upgrades aren’t being considered is that the only weapons you can give them are SVTs. Sure the DP 28 doesn’t match LMGs, but you have a 6 man squad with cheap reinforce, high utility and reasonable veterancy that you will end up with very tedious LMG wars with Ostheer and it stacks well with their ability to build cover.

There are guards Mosins, one of the more underused weapons in the game

Show Spoiler

I mean, I'm not opposed to the 7th man upgrade, at least it FINALLY is a step in the right direction, but honestly i don't thin a 3.6/1 DPS upgrade is enough to make them a reliable mainline.
I'll be testing it further though.

That would be downgrade, and it was already tried. 5-man upgrade didnt work for grens and grens had far higher impact of fifth man even though it's obviously worse than lmg. This is why 7 man conscripts are meme, if fifth man wasnt worth it for grens without g43 and veterancy buffs there is zero chance it working out for cons

The reason behind it is that grenadier get easily wiped. With 5 men they will not be good at fights but at least hey will not evaporate.

Instead of evaporating from artillery they instead slowly bleed you to death as they cant win any engaments against vetted infantry with weapons, conscript style.
Perfect example as to why Conscript buff wont work, it works on same principle as 5 man grens.

Instead of evaporating from artillery they instead slowly bleed you to death as they cant win any engaments against vetted infantry with weapons, conscript style.
Perfect example as to why Conscript buff wont work, it works on same principle as 5 man grens.

And this is my point. It is a similar thing. If conscript get 7th entity grenadier can get 5th.

If it does not work it does not work.

This is why 7 man conscripts are meme, if fifth man wasnt worth it for grens without g43 and veterancy buffs there is zero chance it working out for cons

Grens 5 men upgrade needed G43 and accuracy bonus because it had to compete with the LMG upgrade. With what Cons weapon upgrade does the 7th man upgrade compete exactly?

On Conscripts versus Grenadiers in squad sizes, Grenadiers are also 30 per model while 7 men are 17 per model. 5 men Grens, if they had 0 boosts bleed to death.

Theoretically, if we put in a cover bonus, would people prefer offence over defense? And what bonus as Conscripts already get quite a bit of accuracy with veterancy.

On Conscripts versus Grenadiers in squad sizes, Grenadiers are also 30 per model while 7 men are 17 per model. 5 men Grens, if they had 0 boosts bleed to death.

Theoretically, if we put in a cover bonus, would people prefer offence over defense? And what bonus as Conscripts already get quite a bit of accuracy with veterancy.

The advantage of Conscripts is they're mobile: they've got Oorah, they can flank buildings to burn them out and they've got good snares.

I think turning them into Ostruppen plays against that.

I think the current approach is clever: it makes Cons better andplays into their strengths. A 7-man Con squad can recrew an abandoned team weapon to full without losing the squad. Plus it's clean and obvious what's changing, something this game sorely lacks.

If 7-man Cons isn't enough, I'd try 8-man Cons before stat boosts.

You know, I really dislike the idea of a 7th Conscript. It just doesn't feel right at all and really screws over the Wehrmacht. I think it would help the Conscripts more if there was some sort of upgrade that lowers a Conscript's Upkeep instead, like the Americans of CoH1.

Grens 5 men upgrade needed G43 and accuracy bonus because it had to compete with the LMG upgrade. With what Cons weapon upgrade does the 7th man upgrade compete exactly?

Arguably (if, I'm assuming correctly, the whole point of this change is to make Cons viable) it competes with PPSh-Cons, Vickers K cons (teamgames yo) and that other soviet mainline that can actually win fights.

I think the current approach is clever: it makes Cons better andplays into their strengths. A 7-man Con squad can recrew an abandoned team weapon to full without losing the squad.

This. Conscripts are the only mainline infantry that lacks non-doc weapon upgrade, and that makes them unique and fun to use (if balanced). I like the direction the team is going as it keeps the theme of the conscripts while giving Soviets more options in the infantry department (cons with PPSH, cons with picked-up weapons, 7-man cons).

People always underestimate the impact an additional entity has on a squad's survival (and thereby on the course of the match), and that is especially relevant for cons with their excellent veterancy. If cons prove to be undesirable still, try some of the stat/cover buffs suggested in the topic before considering weapon upgrades.