Feedback for New Commander mod 4.0 - OST core changes

Ad populum. Just because a bunch of people believe something doesn't make it true.
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No its not, im just reminding ddd and his peculiar way of complaint that people chosed this commander, either respect that or dont use it.

@ddd
As a community feedback driven patch, wouldnt it be so importat that most of people decide what it should contain?
Cherrypicking abilities to make it "usable" was not the concept of the poll to begin with

I mean, i see people crying about USF commander but people voted for it in the first place.

Even those who claim the commander is weak suggest ideas out of place and dont respect at all the concept that most of people voted...

No its not, im just reminding ddd and his peculiar way of complaint that people chosed this commander, either respect that or dont use it.

@ddd
As a community feedback driven patch, wouldnt it be so importat that most of people decide what it should contain?

I mean, i see people crying about USF commander but people voted for it in the first place.

Even those who claim the commander is weak suggest ideas out of place and dont respect at all the concept that most of people voted...

Do you understand words i wrote in my previous post? There was no choice, it was one specified commander versus bunch of different ideas from different people. Even if second option got through balance team could put literally anything there, including current commander (and they probably would).

You say most people should decide what is in and then you dismiss all the feedback that is coming from them about this commander. The feedback is mostly negative, best seen in reddit thread where 90% people said this commander is weak and boring.

Concept of this commander is urban assault yet it didnt have any urban assault tools at first, only after people spoke out they decided to throw some molotovs and white phosphorous in. This shows how laughably bad this commander is.

No its not, im just reminding ddd and his peculiar way of complaint that people chosed this commander, either respect that or dont use it.

@ddd
As a community feedback driven patch, wouldnt it be so importat that most of people decide what it should contain?
Cherrypicking abilities to make it "usable" was not the concept of the poll to begin with

I mean, i see people crying about USF commander but people voted for it in the first place.

Even those who claim the commander is weak suggest ideas out of place and dont respect at all the concept that most of people voted...

The concept is fine. What people (at least myself and some others) don't like is that everything the commander has with the exception of rangers is not worth picking at all. Compare this commander to any of the okw commanders (except feursturm lel) or even existing usf commanders (even rifle company IMO ffs) and it really doesn't stack up at all. Since that's the case, it should be tweaked to remove that issue, but "well people voted for it so take it or leave it" is neither a solution nor a constructive move towards one, and is completely irrelevant to a balance discussion.

@loopDloop Why are you compaing commanders in the first place? What is your point about it?

Why are you not comparing the pre-patch USF with the new one in means of diversity? Why only matters meta commanders and OP if possible too?

In the end this is a community patch (not a balance one) maybe if we all become alittle humble about a mod team still working on the game.

Balance patches can be added but with the propper address, not some BS like "this commander is useless"

Edit: added

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You say most people should decide what is in and then you dismiss all the feedback that is coming from them about this commander. The feedback is mostly negative, best seen in reddit thread where 90% people said this commander is weak and boring.

Concept of this commander is urban assault yet it didnt have any urban assault tools at first, only after people spoke out they decided to throw some molotovs and white phosphorous in. This shows how laughably bad this commander is.

negative feedback is not the same as constructive feedback. Pay attention next time.

As for urban assault tools, what do you expect to have? E8 are not "urban assault tools" neither but oh boi, some people are out of their minds already saying S76 are bad in this commander.
In the end its true, you just cant have overperforming inf+tanks+rocket arty.

@loopDloop Why are you compaing commanders in the first place? What is your point about it?

Why are you not comparing the pre-patch USF with the new one in means of diversity? Why only matters meta commanders and OP if possible too?

In the end this is a community patch (not a balance one) maybe if we all become alittle humble about a mod team still working on the game.

Balance patches can be added but with the propper address, not some BS like "this commander is useless"

I am comparing commanders because that is how you figure out how relatively good/bad a commander is. The new USF commander is very lacking compared to other commanders, which is relevant because I'd rather just pick any other commander instead of shooting myself in the foot by picking something that comparatively won't be as useful. I don't understand why that's a question or what's so confusing about that. Remember you can only pick one commander and not every faction has access to everything they could foreseeably need without picking a commander.

Community patch doesn't mean it's not a balance patch. If there was no balance in mind in making these commanders I want a commander with a 0cp, 200mp kubel that shoots flak 88 rounds at 700rpm of of the mg34. In all seriousness, that logic clearly doesn't hold up especially in light of pgrens, ostwind, and stug changes, all of which are balance changes.

"This commander is useless" is not what I said, but even if it was there's no basis for calling BS on the sentiment that it is useless. It's also frankly a little unprovokedly confrontational and rude. But give me one reason why I should pick that commander over literally any other USF commander.

I am comparing commanders because that is how you figure out how relatively good/bad a commander is. The new USF commander is very lacking compared to other commanders, ...

And thats why you dont compare between commanders without a point of reference.
Relatively speaking if all USF were OP, are you saying that this one is bad because is not as OP as others?
As a matter of fact i dont think USF commanders are OP, but you lack of common ground to discuss if you only compare and argue about relative points of view.
Commanders as you know, add to the faction, they are not the faction itself.

As it is now, USF has become very flexible, this new commander promises to give diversity instead of meta. If you take absolute facts about the faction, maybe this commander is not that bad, at least not "useless". And as long as people give feedback taking account how currently USF is balance wise and dont cherrypick I think we all will receive the best patch possible
If we are to consider this to be the last patch of CoH2, well i would say there was left a lot of balance issues on the road, its unreal to expect a mod team to solve them all.

Finally i think OST balance changes were added because many people and myself find OH lacking in 1v1's, specially against the new revamped USF and UKF. And its better to keep on adding features instead of rolling back the ones broadly accepted.

The concept is fine. What people (at least myself and some others) don't like is that everything the commander has with the exception of rangers is not worth picking at all. Compare this commander to any of the okw commanders (except feursturm lel) or even existing usf commanders (even rifle company IMO ffs) and it really doesn't stack up at all. Since that's the case, it should be tweaked to remove that issue, but "well people voted for it so take it or leave it" is neither a solution nor a constructive move towards one, and is completely irrelevant to a balance discussion.

Those rifle nades are bloody good. It's like a mini mobile mortar. As far as urban abilities go this is easily one of the best in the entire game hands down and will even be good in open maps where cover is scarce simply by cover denial.
If the dozer added more armour as well as health it would also be incredible for urban combat. The calliope buffs really did a world of good for the unit and it also effects the other calliope commander as well (2 for 1)
No, it's not the "Pershing battlegroup, airborne rangers, calliopriest and air supremacy commander that players seem to think as a viable option but it is a good commander and think it will be a must have in your load out for team games.

I said it somewhere before and I say it again: Changes to Stug were made in comparison to much higher cost T4 tank destroyers (tech+individual cost). When you really want to pit the survivability of the Stug against T4 units then give M10 same treatment please.
M10 fills in the same spot as Stug and has similar problems. It is more mobile, but its survivability is even worse (less armor and a size of 22).
So directly pit M10 against reworked Stug please, as you implement it at the new UKF doctrine.

The m10 has faster speed, a turret, a bit more health, 0.75 moving acc and I believe HVAP too. Way better than a Stug.

Panzefüsiliere with 2×Panzerbüchse and stay with rife-AT-grenade. AT-mine for Sturmpioniers.

Where would be the problem?

My suggestion for AT-Panzerfüssies:

• 1 Schreck
  
• AT satchel
  
• Tellermine
  
  But honestly it may better to take away the AT-package for Pzfussies and create a new commander ability "PAnzerjäeger package". 2 schrecks on sturmpios is less problematic.
  
  
• Sturms get 2& Schrecks
  
• can lay Tellermines
  
• Pzfussies get the AT satchel as part of their 6 men upgrade
  
  
  
  

Mainly playing 3vs/4vs4 AT with friends for the fun of it. This unit will be maximum annoying. It was such a good day as the Volk Shrek blob died. Big games really got better afterwards. And now it will get even worse. Really?

Daily reminder that current Panzerfusiliers Schrecks are not comparable at all to old Volks Schrecks for a huge number of reasons.

Also just to calm everyone down, the sprints (both the vet 5 passive and Tactical Movement) will very likely be replaced. Just haven't decided yet on what will replace them.

Daily reminder that current Panzerfusiliers Schrecks are not comparable at all to old Volks Schrecks for a huge number of reasons.

You'll have to name them.

290mp unit that can be equiped with dual shreck. You need 2 squads to ensure a wipe on 90% of tanks Allied can field or to force instant retreat for those medium. Not to mention that volks still have pfaust which they didn't have back with their shreck.

Also just to calm everyone down, the sprints (both the vet 5 passive and Tactical Movement) will very likely be replaced. Just haven't decided yet on what will replace them.

Thats a good decision. I guess you concentrated yourself mainly on the OST core changes in the last week. In the 5.0 version you can do probably more changes to the commanders.

(If you are looking for a replacement for "tactical movement"... Sector Arty is still in need of a rework

You'll have to name them.

• Volks were way cheaper (235MP and 5 popcap) and had way better RA (with vet) and better vet in general than Panzerfusiliers;

• Volks back then had no other upgrades and there was nothing else in stock OKW roster to spend munitions on (except Obers);

• Back then Volks got crazy amounts of experience from hitting vehicles which allowed them to vet up really fast, further increasing their remaining AI. That's no longer the case;

• There were no other strategic choices, unlike now where one must choose between AI or AT upgrades;

• Panzerfusiliers with 2x Schrecks have practically no AI DPS left, unlike Volks Schrecks that still had pretty decent AI. One Allied stock mainline infantry squad has a good chance at fighting off up to three Panzerschreck Panzerfusiliers squads, an upgraded squad will do so with ease;

• Back then, Panzerschrecks had a decent chance to snipe an infantry model (especially with all the accuracy bonusses Volks got from vet back then), further increasing Schrecked Volks' AI power. Now Panzerschrecks have been adjusted to deal barely any damage to infantry at all (30 damage on a direct hit, which is unlikely because of a 0.5 accuracy modifier versus infantry);

• Panzerfusiliers are super munitions heavy with 90 MU and 120 MU upgrades;

• The doctrine itself is pretty munitions heavy.

You need 2 squads to ensure a wipe on 90% of tanks Allied can field or to force instant retreat for those medium.

Panzerschrecks deal 120 damage per shot. Assuming all four shots connect, which is unlikely at longer ranges, it will do a maximum of 480 alpha damage which is 160 damage short of killing a medium tank (640 HP). You need 6 shots to kill one so either you'd need three squads (840 manpower and 360 munitions) and very good RNG or you need to get follow up shots.

If we're just looking at forcing off tanks, two Panzerfusiliers with Panzerschrecks cost more than two Royal Engineers with 4x PIATs which is also enough to force off any Axis medium tank, so I don't really see how that's an argument. It's their job to force off tanks, that's why you'd bring infantry to counter them. And unlike the old Schrecked Volksgrenadiers, Schrecked Panzerfusiliers don't stand a chance against enemy infantry. Their AI is so poor they lose to Rear Echelon Troops.


I'm not saying Panzerfusilier Panzerschreck blobs are not a concern. That's why both the passive vet and the doctrinal sprint will likely be replaced preemptively. But I do think most people are overestimating their effectiveness, especially because comparing them to the old Volksgrenadiers is wrong.

You'll have to name them.

290mp unit that can be equiped with dual shreck. You need 2 squads to ensure a wipe on 90% of tanks Allied can field or to force instant retreat for those medium. Not to mention that volks still have pfaust which they didn't have back with their shreck.

Yeah, I mean it's not like people are willing to blob expensive PGrens so they can OHK allied mediums right?

Yeah, I mean it's not like people are willing to blob expensive PGrens so they can OHK allied mediums right?

Good for you, easy to counter. Micro and outrange them.

• Volks were way cheaper (235MP and 5 popcap) and had way better RA (with vet) and better vet in general than Panzerfusiliers;

• Volks back then had no other upgrades and there was nothing else in stock OKW roster to spend munitions on (except Obers);

• Back then Volks got crazy amounts of experience from hitting vehicles which allowed them to vet up really fast, further increasing their remaining AI. That's no longer the case;

• There were no other strategic choices, unlike now where one must choose between AI or AT upgrades;

• Panzerfusiliers with 2x Schrecks have practically no AI DPS left, unlike Volks Schrecks that still had pretty decent AI. One Allied stock mainline infantry squad has a good chance at fighting off up to three Panzerschreck Panzerfusiliers squads, an upgraded squad will do so with ease;

• Panzerfusiliers are super munitions heavy with 90 MUNI and 120 MUNI upgrades;

• The doctrine itself is pretty munitions heavy.

Panzerschrecks deal 120 damage per shot. Assuming all four shots connect (which is unlikely), it will do a maximum of 480 alpha damage which is 160 damage short of killing a medium tank. You need 6 shots to kill one so either you'd need three squads (840 manpower and 360 munitions) or to hit follow up shots.

Two Panzerfusiliers with Panzerschrecks cost more than two Royal Engineers with 4x PIATs which is also enough to force off any Axis medium tank, so I don't really see how that's an argument.

Didn´t talked about alfa strike, said ensure kill assuming squad will shot twice or make the tank flies away with a silver of life. But as you mentioned it, 3 squads are enough to take down any medium with one alfa strike.

I mean Ostheer are already doing it with Pzgren, I did it myself numerous time with Pzgren which are much more expensive and only 4 men squad on a faction you need to upgrade your gren to keep them relevant.

Reasons.

Also, at that time, AT weapons did full damage against infantry, meaning you had a non-negligible chance to instantly snipe a model with the schreck. Schreck/zook/handheld rockets have been changed to do reduced damage (1/4th, for pschrecks it seems) against infantry. Apparently they also get reduced accuracy if I'm reading it correctly.

Also, at that time, AT weapons did full damage against infantry, meaning you had a non-negligible chance to instantly snipe a model with the schreck. Schreck/zook/handheld rockets have been changed to do reduced damage (1/4th, for pschrecks it seems) against infantry. Apparently they also get reduced accuracy if I'm reading it correctly.

I knew I forgot something. Thanks, added it to the laundry list.

Well if fusilier sprint is going I pray they get their bonus range vet back + sight range
It would help solidify their long range/scout role