Kubel needs changes

Kubelwagon MG-34 Weapon Stats

Accuracy = Far 0.35
Mid 0.55
Near 0.7


Universal Carrier Weapon Stats
Accuracy = Far 0.6
Mid 0.7
Near 0.8

Heavy Machine Guns (Mg-42, Vickers etc) in General tend to have low accuracy and damage due to the fact that they have suppression. When the Kubelwagon used to function as OKW's Machine Gun, the low accuracy made sense however they never updated its weapon stats to compensate for the lack of suppression. The Kubelwagon should be brought up to the Universal Carrier in terms of accuracy.
Far 0.55
Mid 0.65
Near 0.75

This would make the Kubelwagon an option, at the moment you are better off using that manpower on something else more useful which is why you see the typical 3 Volks opening.

In addition the Veterancy for the unit is complete ass. Let's take a look at the Veterancy.

Kubelwagon Veterancy
Vet 1 : Unlocks the 'Detection' ability
Vet 2 : +20% speed, +20% rotation speed, +25% ac/de-celeration
Vet 3 : Passive self-repairing
Vet 4 : +20% burst duration, +30% accuracy
Vet 5 : -29% received accuracy, passive suppression

It requires 3535 Experience in order to hit Vet 5. The Soviet M3A1 Scout Car only needs 1840 experience to be maxed out. Considering that these units aren't viable past the first 5 minutes of the game, it doesn't make sense for the Kubelwagon's veterancy to be so high, especially when the veterancy it gets is mostly useless outside of the Vet 1 ability.


Total List of Improvements needed for Kubelwagon
Accuracy Improved
Some form of Veterancy rework/Improvements
Improve Weapon Cone of Fire (Since it is no longer a suppression platform this would allow it to flank easier)
Improved Cost

Kubelwagon MG-34 Weapon Stats

...

+1 ...the amount of exp and time you need to vet this thing to vet5 is MUCH harder than to get vet5 KT...which...lets be honest is usefull at this state....and the KT isnt this great tank anymore...

so yes: let the kubel vet MUCH faster so it would be build much often and will be used (except you want to meme it)

some changes it could get to be better:

- less requ. vet
- faster turning (more mobile)
- less size (harder to hit: for expample it should be impossible to hit a kubel while driving with an AT gun or tank gun ...try it...you will need dozen of shots...)
- maybe an upgrade (better weapon/ can carry a squad/ transport puppchen etc)

Heavy Machine Guns (Mg-42, Vickers etc) in General tend to have low accuracy and damage due to the fact that they have suppression.

No, not at all, not even close.

Its because of rate of fire and burst length/shots on burst.

You'll find that Vickers and MG-42 have similar DPS, but Vickers has higher accuracy and MG42 higher RoF.

Show Spoiler


Yes, that is why I believe it requires adjustments also. I appreciate the effort Kurobane. Exactly what you have said, "This would make the Kubelwagon an option, at the moment you are better off using that manpower on something else more useful which is why you see the typical 3 Volks opening."

Currently it is ridiculous to use because of how useless it is in many situations. Sturmpios and Volks are better combined overall, not Kubel. Check what I have suggested #38, may be the thing it needs. In MG mode should take less damage also, still vulnerable to small firearms but reduction in damage around 30-50% would be nice. Remove Cap. It should be more AI focused. This will make the unit more unique (in a fixed proper manner) than it currently is.

he compared it with the WC 51 which can carry a full squad which can shot out of it while driving...has a 4model close combat crew inclusive and can be upgraded with a MG.

so we are talking about the same WC51 then. the one that can cap but lacks any combat capability without doing one of the following:
-add an entire other squad to it
-add a 45mu upgrade
-decrew and risk giving the enemy a free vehicle...

you get more if you invest more, who woulda thought....

do try to think before you type...

now lets talk about the kubel...which will lose ANY fight ...even vs rear echelons. and it can cap.
not more..no more upgrade for muni, no squad inside etc...it has a turnspeed from a p4 and has armor like a gocart....

and speaking of thinking before you type, i ACTUALLY use the kuble so i know your claim is BS but decided to get it on the record with tests!

for the tests im attack moving the kuble at the squads in no cover, since the kuble is such a poor combat unit, worse than the unarmed wc51 i feel it would be overkill to throw them into green cover
(also if attacking a unit in green cover the kuble should be part of an attack not the only attack so its not really realistic)
10 tests a piece as that gives us a nice blend of good percentage numbers (nice and round) but also so i dont suck start a shotgun with the mind numbingness of it. if it gets close (like 50/50) ill do another 10x

anyways, the results! (have more pics too if you want em, as the fight begins each time and as it ends, time stamped and what not)

UNIT CARDS UP IN THE TOP SHOW VICTOR AND REMAINING HEALTH
all fights to the death

Rear Echelons

...which will lose ANY fight ...even vs rear echelons...

THOSE Rear Echlons (the results are going to shock you)

Combat Engies

Tommies

Rifles

Concripts

i can do more tests should you like (not today tho) perhaps with that wicked nasty wc51 crew against axis starting units like pios and sturms and volks and grens
i may also do kuble v penals just so we can see how that turns out

so we are talking about the same WC51 then. the one that can cap but lacks any combat capability without doing one of the following:
-add an entire other squad to it
-add a 45mu upgrade
-decrew and risk giving the enemy a free vehicle...

you get more if you invest more, who woulda thought....

do try to think before you type...

The mental gymnastic in this post is fucking unbearable lol

WC51 is simply OP.
Kubel in most cases is not worth building.

so we are talking about the same WC51 then. the one that can cap but lacks any combat capability without doing one of the following:
-add an entire other squad to it
-add a 45mu upgrade
-decrew and risk giving the enemy a free vehicle...

you get more if you invest more, who woulda thought....

do try to think before you type...



and speaking of thinking before you type, i ACTUALLY use the kuble so i know your claim is BS but decided to get it on the record with tests!

for the tests im attack moving the kuble at the squads in no cover, since the kuble is such a poor combat unit, worse than the unarmed wc51 i feel it would be overkill to throw them into green cover
(also if attacking a unit in green cover the kuble should be part of an attack not the only attack so its not really realistic)
10 tests a piece as that gives us a nice blend of good percentage numbers (nice and round) but also so i dont suck start a shotgun with the mind numbingness of it. if it gets close (like 50/50) ill do another 10x

anyways, the results! (have more pics too if you want em, as the fight begins each time and as it ends, time stamped and what not)

UNIT CARDS UP IN THE TOP SHOW VICTOR AND REMAINING HEALTH
all fights to the death

Rear Echelons



THOSE Rear Echlons (the results are going to shock you)

Combat Engies

Tommies

Rifles

Concripts

i can do more tests should you like (not today tho) perhaps with that wicked nasty wc51 crew against axis starting units like pios and sturms and volks and grens
i may also do kuble v penals just so we can see how that turns out

did u know that its AN ADVATAGE to put an entire squad into a car?
because this sqaud is now MUCH more mobile and doesnt bleed mp.

did you also know that a close combat specialst in such car can easily wipe mostly all squads (even on retreat...exspaccily when retreat)

The mental gymnastic in this post is fucking unbearable lol

How so? The Kuble can cap and fight out of the box. The wc51 needs something more in order to cap and fight.
After you invest more, you have a better unit.
You pay more and you get more.
No hurdles or balancing bars here.

How so? The Kuble can cap and fight out of the box. The wc51 needs something more in order to cap and fight.
After you invest more, you have a better unit.
You pay more and you get more.
No hurdles or balancing bars here.

Your mental gymnastic in a nutshell

> cons cost less than Obers

> With Obers you pay more

> you pay more you get a better unit

> cons are fine

did you also know that a close combat specialst in such car can easily wipe mostly all squads (even on retreat...exspaccily when retreat)

Holy crap, you DID took seriously "use shocks in M3" joke.

Your mental gymnastic in a nutshell

> cons cost less than Obers

> With Obers you pay more

> you pay more you get a better unit

> cons are fine

And yours aren't?
Did it took a lot of brainfart to ignore grens existence and pull that strawman?

did u know that its AN ADVATAGE to put an entire squad into a car?
because this sqaud is now MUCH more mobile and doesnt bleed mp.

did you also know that a close combat specialst in such car can easily wipe mostly all squads (even on retreat...exspaccily when retreat)

Never said anything to the contrary. You are now changing the goal post.
Are you aware of the advantage in being able to quickly cap and goon enemy squads all of whom you can beat with a 96% chance of victory outright? (while not realistic to fight to the death, at the very least a unit is forced off the front and you do not bleed at all)

But to humor you, can you imagine what a transport with sturms would be like?
Or that the only way to actually throw a cqb squad into a transport in the timing where the Kuble is relevant to the discussion is:
Have a usf ally gift you a wc51 while you yourself went ass engies
Slightly after the Kuble timing:
Sappers in a Bren? (never seen this one before but I guess it's possible)
After 2 cp:
Shocks in a clowncar
Stormtroopers in a 250

And even now I'm not sure why we're talking about how much better a fuel investment and elite infantry together is and why that means the 210mp Kuble is in need of a buff.
Did you know the Soviet halftrack is bulletproof? Would you like to add that as a reason the Kuble needs a buff too?

All the Kuble needs is its vet looked at. As pointed out it's vet requirements are stupid high. That and shared vet would Absoultly be enough to make it more attractive (free self heal at vet 3? Boom best harrasment unit around)
Many okw units suffer from an inability to achieve their vet, which is a major problem and making it accessible does nothing but good for the game. The Kuble is no exception.

Your mental gymnastic in a nutshell

> cons cost less than Obers

> With Obers you pay more

> you pay more you get a better unit

> cons are fine

Obers and cons are not comparable in the least.

Wc51 and Kuble both:
Cost similar
Similar durability
Same timing
Both LVs that can cap territory

But one can reach its full potential without any extra investments.

The only similarities between cons and Obers is that they have bolt action rifles and legs.

If you want to compare cons to something try volks:
Same timing
Similar costs
Similar durability
Snare
Only stock units with thrown fire weapons
Can build cover

Oh and comparing like that you will find cons wanting BTW.

lets be clear: i know that an elite unit + wc51 cost more. no question.

but the entire AXIS ARMY has only 1 or 2 commanders where they get a fragile less mobile car where they can carry a squad which can shoot out while driving...AND of course..ONLY one squad is allowed!

while every allie armys know many ways to carry around its squad on superfast and bulletproofs cars...AND mostly with 2 squads in it.

why no ugrade for kubel to sit in with a squad? let it cost 50muni and all is fine, right? (we learned today: more cost = more profit = its all ok)

lets be clear: i know that an elite unit + wc51 cost more. no question.

but the entire AXIS ARMY has only 1 or 2 commanders where they get a fragile less mobile car where they can carry a squad which can shoot out while driving...AND of course..ONLY one squad is allowed!

while every allie armys know many ways to carry around its squad on superfast and bulletproofs cars...AND mostly with 2 squads in it.

why no ugrade for kubel to sit in with a squad? let it cost 50muni and all is fine, right? (we learned today: more cost = more profit = its all ok)

Because asymmetrical balance. How many out of the entire allied army start with infantry armed with automatics? 1 commander allows for such a thing! All axis has automatics out the ass and allies need either a doctrine or to spend fuel to unlock automatics.
WFA doesn't have snipers
Only okw has A stock heavy tank
Both axis factions have the longest range units in the game
All allied factions have 60 range TDs
All axis armies can field armour exceeding 400 armour value
OKW has a unit that can see through walls!

Everyone has different tools which are to be balanced by the OTHER tools they have. Sturms and a garrison wouldn't be balanced.
The Kuble can 1v1 any allied t0 unit. That's quite good. But people want it to be BETTER in combat?
No NOW they want it to garrison solely because allies have light transports?
Yall don't know what you want. You just want some buff to take it to OP and don't care what it is.

All it needs is a vet accessibility buff.

Here are the changes it exactly needs if you guys want to keep Kubel the way it is, being able to cap and all.

The following are

- Increase Accuracy, Kurobane #41 stated its current stats in comparison to Universal Carrier
- Give it an upgrade option or 2 (or more, give out your ideas please) . To make it cost more for more performance, everyone likes that, wants that, WE NEEDS IT PRECIOUS.
- Upgrade 1> is HMG, removes ability to cap, has to setup before it suppresses, setup time 2-3 sec, takes 30-50% less damage. Performs similarly to Maxim, better or worse. Guess we will have to see.
- Upgrade 2> MG42, increase rate of fire, bursts and accuracy over distance. More aggro style, possible Cap removal.
- Decrease Veterancy requirments. It is ridiculous currently, Kurobane #41 stated it also
- Decrease Target Size, currently gets damaged too frequently, still vulernable to small arms but should be reduced or become less vulnerable than it currently is.
- To balance, upgrades become only accessible when an HQ is built,
Or
Can build upgrades anytime like Universal Carrier does.
What you guys think about this for balancing?
Then we can decide on nerfing Volks versatility. Discuss on this forum instead "https://www.coh2.org/topic/88296/revamp-volksgrenadiers-terms-of-versatility-okw";


If it performs better (depending of course how good the changes are) when changed, buff its price to around 240-250 manpower. Upgrades costing range from 40 - 70 ammo, would be great. Gives the Kubel some appreciation plz!

Because asymmetrical balance. How many out of the entire allied army start with infantry armed with automatics? 1 commander allows for such a thing! All axis has automatics out the ass and allies need either a doctrine or to spend fuel to unlock automatics.
WFA doesn't have snipers
Only okw has A stock heavy tank
Both axis factions have the longest range units in the game
All allied factions have 60 range TDs
All axis armies can field armour exceeding 400 armour value
OKW has a unit that can see through walls!

Everyone has different tools which are to be balanced by the OTHER tools they have. Sturms and a garrison wouldn't be balanced.
The Kuble can 1v1 any allied t0 unit. That's quite good. But people want it to be BETTER in combat?
No NOW they want it to garrison solely because allies have light transports?
Yall don't know what you want. You just want some buff to take it to OP and don't care what it is.

All it needs is a vet accessibility buff.

asymetric balance? than..pls help me to understand why sov gets from all the nice stuff from all other faction?

they have (look to your suggested axis stuff)
- sniper
- many docs to upgrade automatics and units with automatics
- callin super heavys
- LONG range TD ...which even can wipe squads at 70 range with no problem
- super heavy armored and dmg-absorbing tanks
- mortar flares and maphacks
- beasty artys
- best offmap stuff
- best trolling units and tactics (aka demos, kv2, kv8, b4, satchels, ISU, anti tank rain, and so on..)

sov and brits have all the nice stuff from all other faction..mostly in better versions

asymetric balance? than..pls help me to understand why sov gets from all the nice stuff from all other faction?

they have (look to your suggested axis stuff)
- sniper
- many docs to upgrade automatics and units with automatics
- callin super heavys
- LONG range TD ...which even can wipe squads at 70 range with no problem
- super heavy armored and dmg-absorbing tanks
- mortar flares and maphacks
- beasty artys
- best offmap stuff
- best trolling units and tactics (aka demos, kv2, kv8, b4, satchels, ISU, anti tank rain, and so on..)

sov and brits have all the nice stuff from all other faction..mostly in better versions

Darkarmadillo has right, why buff the kubel? Okw need some early game stuff? I don't think so. Kubel is used in some strat to keep a super early cap advantage without bleeding and rush call in infantry. Usf does not have raketens or support weapons to hold a buffed kubel in a lot of maps. Why you need to buff the kubel? There is a decent reason apart for 'allies has m3 and UC' or 'poeple choose always volks'? Kubel needs only lower vet requirements.

How about inverting its DPS curve to be more like the Universal Carrier, making it a better support unit at long range.