Actually, the Jagdpanther's front and side armor were no better than the Panther's. Meaning the usual stuff works, you just have to be faster at it since it can kill Soviet tanks faster.
Thing is, we still don't need stuff that just kills Soviet tanks faster, there's plenty of that as it is.
Why not Jagdpanther?
2 Oct 2013, 17:27 PM
#21
Posts: 401
2 Oct 2013, 20:38 PM
#22
Posts: 978
Nice useless comment.
call something ridiculously nerfed even before it comes to existence.....
Well, just for you then: Experience with Coh2 has shown that most heavier tanks are nerfed compared to their real performance to balance them. Panthers in Coh2 for example are often penetrated frontally by 85mm guns etc.
I´d prefer something lighter added to the game, which is more balanced by nature, like Hetzer and Jagdpanzer IV. Then I wouldn´t facepalm as hard if their shots bounce from KV-8s or if they die to Su-85s (although even Hetzer and Jagdpanzer IV still had sufficient frontal armor
).
2 Oct 2013, 21:51 PM
#23
![avatar of =][=mmortal](/uploads/avatar/6497.jpg?updated=1372535109)
Posts: 215
Jagdpanther is much faster then elephant.He would have a completely different role.Elephant is too slow to be an offensive tank destroyer.
thats like saying su85s cant be used offensively. you screen them with other units and their long range just pushes armor off the field, whether or not it can actually kill them before the enemy pops smoke and reverses
2 Oct 2013, 21:53 PM
#24
Posts: 215
side note: why are we talking about adding mirror su-100s to counter new jagdpanthers? Why would we introduce new units whose only role is to counter the opposite new unit that performs the same function? Why not leave them out completely because obviously they dont really have a role.
favorite quote stolen from a civ5 research bulletin:
"the bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of an expanding bureaucracy"
favorite quote stolen from a civ5 research bulletin:
"the bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of an expanding bureaucracy"
2 Oct 2013, 22:05 PM
#25
Posts: 578
side note: why are we talking about adding mirror su-100s to counter new jagdpanthers? Why would we introduce new units whose only role is to counter the opposite new unit that performs the same function? Why not leave them out completely because obviously they dont really have a role.
favorite quote stolen from a civ5 research bulletin:
"the bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of an expanding bureaucracy"
If that is true so they should remove all tanks from the game.
Give germans only Panzer 4 and soviets only T-34.Other Units have no role.
Tiger is only a bigger panzer 4 and IS-2 is a bigger T-34.They are only there to Counter each other so remove them pls from the game.
3 Oct 2013, 09:37 AM
#26
Posts: 401
To be honest, the SU-100 would be a much needed counter directly to German heavy and super heavies across the board, not just the jagdpanther.
Considering the meta these days in team matches, I'm always looking for something to curtail the inevitable Tiger spam.
Considering the meta these days in team matches, I'm always looking for something to curtail the inevitable Tiger spam.
3 Oct 2013, 13:02 PM
#27
Posts: 978
To be honest, the SU-100 would be a much needed counter directly to German heavy and super heavies across the board, not just the jagdpanther.Funny, because the current Su-85 pretty much performs like a SU-100. Going through Panthers frontal armor, out-ranging German guns... hell, considering the quality in optics even the SU-100 couldn´t do the latter. This performance sounds not like the historical SU-85 to me but rather a SU-100.
Considering the meta these days in team matches, I'm always looking for something to curtail the inevitable Tiger spam.
At vet 2 the SU-85 in Coh2 two shots StuGs. Two shot killing armored units: That´s something only the Elefant can do also.
Just change the skin and name it SU-100.
3 Oct 2013, 16:38 PM
#28
Posts: 40
Funny, because the current Su-85 pretty much performs like a SU-100. Going through Panthers frontal armor, out-ranging German guns... hell, considering the quality in optics even the SU-100 couldn´t do the latter. This performance sounds not like the historical SU-85 to me but rather a SU-100.
At vet 2 the SU-85 in Coh2 two shots StuGs. Two shot killing armored units: That´s something only the Elefant can do also.
Just change the skin and name it SU-100.
I absolutely agree with you. SU85 is just an excellent counter to german heavy tanks. Moreover (if you play well) no german can perform a Tiger spam.
3 Oct 2013, 19:38 PM
#29
Posts: 954
Nice useless comment.
Well, just for you then: Experience with Coh2 has shown that most heavier tanks are nerfed compared to their real performance to balance them. Panthers in Coh2 for example are often penetrated frontally by 85mm guns etc.
I´d prefer something lighter added to the game, which is more balanced by nature, like Hetzer and Jagdpanzer IV. Then I wouldn´t facepalm as hard if their shots bounce from KV-8s or if they die to Su-85s (although even Hetzer and Jagdpanzer IV still had sufficient frontal armor
Most Useless comment indeed....
did T-34 have the 40:1 numerical advantages vs Tiger in game? Did T-34/85 have problem penetrating PZIV in reality? Can a Panther often penetrating a JS-2M frontally?
cheery picking enough about the "reality" ?
BTW: calling something ridiculously nerfed before it even comes into existence is already the most useless comment I've heard in this forum
First off all. Tripwire so gud, 10 ammo for a whole dead squad ? + sight.
Vehicle capture point can win games, blitzkrieg save a tank. Fair Deal i think
3 Oct 2013, 20:07 PM
#30
Posts: 401
Only problem is that the SU-85 was the only option given to do so.
Being able to handle German heavies isn't the same as countering them. Applying damage? Sure, that damage is there to keep people from acting silly with tanks.
If those heavies bounced all shots from the SU-85, when there would be nothing in the soviet army able to fight off German armor. So let's not be silly and try to bring that argument in there.
If you want historical values, go play a sim, there's a lot out there.
Being able to handle German heavies isn't the same as countering them. Applying damage? Sure, that damage is there to keep people from acting silly with tanks.
If those heavies bounced all shots from the SU-85, when there would be nothing in the soviet army able to fight off German armor. So let's not be silly and try to bring that argument in there.
If you want historical values, go play a sim, there's a lot out there.
3 Oct 2013, 21:14 PM
#31
Posts: 578
Most Useless comment indeed....
did T-34 have the 40:1 numerical advantages vs Tiger in game? Did T-34/85 have problem penetrating PZIV in reality? Can a Panther often penetrating a JS-2M frontally?
cheery picking enough about the "reality" ?
BTW: calling something ridiculously nerfed before it even comes into existence is already the most useless comment I've heard in this forum
Panther had no Problems penetrating IS-2s frontarmour.
Gun Penetration tables for all tanks
Go german/soviet flag and then vehicles there are Penetration datas for all tanks:
Gun Penetration at 500m distance(choosing the best shell for all tanks):
Panther Gun Penetration : 174mm.
Tiger Gun Penetration : 155mm.
IS-2 Gun Penetration : 147mm.
ISU-152 Gun Penetration : 124mm.
SU-100 Gun Penetration : 167mm.
Jagdpanther / King Tiger / Elephant Gun Penetration : 217mm.
Panzer IV Gun Penetration : 108mm.
T-34 Gun Penetration : 64mm.
T-34/85 Gun Penetration : 107mm.
3 Oct 2013, 22:22 PM
#32
Posts: 978
Don´t even try it. I already showed UGBEAR another source that the Panther could defeat IS-2s frontally on about 1km. He even asked for that source but then seems to ignore it anyways. Maybe it doesn´t fit his image of Russian super tanks.
Panther had no Problems penetrating IS-2s frontarmour.
tarrif.net
Go german/soviet flag and then vehicles there are Penetration datas for all tanks:
Gun Penetration at 500m distance(choosing the best shell for all tanks):
Panther Gun Penetration : 174mm.
Tiger Gun Penetration : 155mm.
IS-2 Gun Penetration : 147mm.
ISU-152 Gun Penetration : 124mm.
SU-100 Gun Penetration : 167mm.
Jagdpanther / King Tiger / Elephant Gun Penetration : 217mm.
Panzer IV Gun Penetration : 108mm.
T-34 Gun Penetration : 64mm.
T-34/85 Gun Penetration : 107mm.
As for the 40:1 statement. You are comparing a medium tank with a Heavy tank. Of course the numbers are different there. Better compare the 50k T-34s to the 5,7k Panzer IIIs, 10k StuGs, 6k Panthers, 9k Panzer IVs rather than 1350 Tiger I. A proper comparison would be IS-2 versus Tiger I , which is roughly 3:1.
A direct comparison is hard anyways as Russians mostly relied on the T-34 as their main tank while Germans had more different types as their "main" armor. Still a huge numerical advantage for soviets but not 40:1.
As for the uselessness of the statement: I´m sorry you can´t see a scheme in the game. It´s not that hard.
Last but not least: Why are you talking about an IS-2M, UGBEAR? Someone with your knowledge about tanks should know that it was in fact a version of the IS-2s deployed in the 1950ies.
4 Oct 2013, 00:15 AM
#33
Posts: 954
Don´t even try it. I already showed UGBEAR another source that the Panther could defeat IS-2s frontally on about 1km. He even asked for that source but then seems to ignore it anyways. Maybe it doesn´t fit his image of Russian super tanks.
As for the 40:1 statement. You are comparing a medium tank with a Heavy tank. Of course the numbers are different there. Better compare the 50k T-34s to the 5,7k Panzer IIIs, 10k StuGs, 6k Panthers, 9k Panzer IVs rather than 1350 Tiger I. A proper comparison would be IS-2 versus Tiger I , which is roughly 3:1.
A direct comparison is hard anyways as Russians mostly relied on the T-34 as their main tank while Germans had more different types as their "main" armor. Still a huge numerical advantage for soviets but not 40:1.
As for the uselessness of the statement: I´m sorry you can´t see a scheme in the game. It´s not that hard.
Last but not least: Why are you talking about an IS-2M, UGBEAR? Someone with your knowledge about tanks should know that it was in fact a version of the IS-2s deployed in the 1950ies.
The JS-2M mod 1944 can be also called JS-2M, "Kwk42 L70 penetrating 240mm armor at 1000KM" definitely only a pure reich fanboy will believe that, the KWK44 128mm can barely achieve this score.
Ignorance+cheery picking more please
First off all. Tripwire so gud, 10 ammo for a whole dead squad ? + sight.
Vehicle capture point can win games, blitzkrieg save a tank. Fair Deal i think
4 Oct 2013, 00:19 AM
#34
Posts: 954
Panther had no Problems penetrating IS-2s frontarmour.
tarrif.net
Go german/soviet flag and then vehicles there are Penetration datas for all tanks:
Gun Penetration at 500m distance(choosing the best shell for all tanks):
Panther Gun Penetration : 174mm.
Tiger Gun Penetration : 155mm.
IS-2 Gun Penetration : 147mm.
ISU-152 Gun Penetration : 124mm.
SU-100 Gun Penetration : 167mm.
Jagdpanther / King Tiger / Elephant Gun Penetration : 217mm.
Panzer IV Gun Penetration : 108mm.
T-34 Gun Penetration : 64mm.
T-34/85 Gun Penetration : 107mm.
Panther Gun Penetration : 174mm. at 500m JS-2 Mod 1944 120mm sloped armor at 60 degree to vertical= 240mm,
there's no evidence Panther penetrating a JS-2 Mod 1944 at 1000m in human history, please don't mess up the JS-2 early(steped armor one) with JS-2 Mod1944(which represented in game)
First off all. Tripwire so gud, 10 ammo for a whole dead squad ? + sight.
Vehicle capture point can win games, blitzkrieg save a tank. Fair Deal i think
4 Oct 2013, 00:23 AM
#35
Posts: 578
Panther Gun Penetration : 174mm. at 500m JS-2 Mod 1944 120mm sloped armor at 60 degree to vertical= 240mm,
there's no evidence Panther penetrating a JS-2 Mod 1944 at 1000m in human history, don't mess up the JS-2 early(steped armor one) with JS-2 Mod1944(which represented in game)
Maybe you should read the data more carefully.The datas ARE for sloped armour.
4 Oct 2013, 00:30 AM
#36
Posts: 954
Maybe you should read the data more carefully.The datas ARE for sloped armour.
@30 degree, the data didn't show the degree mark "°“,let's have a 500M best penetration 174mm/sin(60)=200.918<240mm
your point?
First off all. Tripwire so gud, 10 ammo for a whole dead squad ? + sight.
Vehicle capture point can win games, blitzkrieg save a tank. Fair Deal i think
4 Oct 2013, 00:45 AM
#37
Posts: 578
@30 degree, the data didn't show the degree mark "°“,let's have a 500M best penetration 174mm/sin(60)=200.918<240mm
your point?
It seems that you can t life with the fact that your super IS-2 wasn t a godlike tank in reality that nothing could stop.
But it s ok i will Point it out for you to make it clear:
IS-2:
Hull Front (Upper) : 120mm @ 30°
Panther:
Penetration Data for the 75mm Kw.K.42 L / 70
(All data is displayed vs. RHA / FHA plate @ 30°)
30° = 30°
4 Oct 2013, 00:46 AM
#38
Posts: 954
It seems that you can t life with the fact that your super IS-2 wasn t a godlike tank in reality that nothing could stop.
But it s ok i will Point it out for you to make it clear:
30° = 30°
LOL, 60° , again, please, don't mess up the JS-2 early with Mod 1944
First off all. Tripwire so gud, 10 ammo for a whole dead squad ? + sight.
Vehicle capture point can win games, blitzkrieg save a tank. Fair Deal i think
4 Oct 2013, 00:57 AM
#39
Posts: 578
LOL, 60° , again, please, don't mess up the JS-2 early with Mod 1944
Math for fanboys: 90° - 60° = 30° (from horizontal).
60° from vertical = 30° from horizontal.
The datas are from horizontal not from vertical.
4 Oct 2013, 01:00 AM
#40
Posts: 954
Math for fanboys: 90° - 60° = 30° (from horizontal).
60° from vertical = 30° from horizontal.
The datas are from horizontal not from vertical.
then please calculate the horizontal equivalent armor for me and then we can judge whos fan boy, the standard of measure the sloped armor is the angle fron vertical plane of cuz you won't know that.
The data shows nothing about it's measured from horizontal or vertical, if assumed it's measured from horizontal,if you believe a world war II KWK42 L70 75mm gun could penetrating 300mm equivalent armor at 1000m, just keep this to yourself.
please, tell me what is the equivalent armor of 120mm at 30°from horizontal plane
First off all. Tripwire so gud, 10 ammo for a whole dead squad ? + sight.
Vehicle capture point can win games, blitzkrieg save a tank. Fair Deal i think
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