Thoughts on Panzergrenadiers

decrease pop cap(9 -> 8) and reinforce cost (34->32)

Thats enough

He is enough strong

And I'm always iffy on the single schreck because unlike Sturmpioneers, Panzergrenadiers get their important combat vet sooner and their StGs are better.

I do think a single Schreck upgrade (and a second Schreck upgrade) would probably greatly increase their usefulness as they could then help deal with Allied light vehicles earlier because the upgrade won't be as munitions heavy, at a time Ostheer needs the ammo for medical and LMG upgrades and Tellers.

Invissed quite a few posts for being generally unconstructive and a chain of posts that quoted the offending post.

Carry on.

I really appreciate this topic, because I also see your concerns Miragefla!

In my opinion the Wehrmacht pioneers are the pivot. Make them worth buying, give them better close combat qualities and you can build 2 Pios + 2 Grens + MG and you are fine teching T2 getting PGs.

Ost Pios are totally useless for combat at the moment. Even with flamethrowers, they die too quick and don't do any damage. They sometimes even lose versus Soviet engineers or Rear Echelons while having MP40 submachineguns... Thats the reason why Wehr needs minimum 3 Grens, bettter 4 of them (and Allies whine about blobbing/spamming). Just compare them with Royal Engineers. They can get a 5th man, are also close combat with Sten guns, but are way better than Pios. If you manage to get your 4-5 men Royal Engis suqad in cc with a Wehr Grenadier, you really grab them by the pussy!

I don't say they have to be a Sturmpios light version. They just have to be capable of fighting Conscripts, GIs and Tommys in the early game at close, very close range. Penals are more expansive but should also be less potent at close range because semi-auto rifles are not the same as full-auto MPs. Therefore Pios should not be able to extinguish penals in CC but should also do some decent damage.

So when you got your 2 Grens at long range and you get your Pios rushing into CC, you should have a good chance to win in early game. MGs would still be a strong counter, so I don't see any unbalance. We already have Sturm Pios and they are also not an issue.

After 5-6 mins you should then be able to get PGs on the field to replace the pioneers. Cause then USF gets BAR, Tommys get 5 men or Brens an Soviet call in Guards, Shocks or upgrade their Cons with PPSH (Penals have Vet 1 and are a lot stronger then)

In conclusion, buff Pioneers a bit and you get some new meta in eraly game.

For PGs in particular, I would give them a smoke grenade as it was proposed in the last Balance Preview Patch. This would give them a better chance to flank enemy MGs and give the Wehrmacht a better offense ability. That's all I would do with PGs.

In my opinion the Wehrmacht pioneers are the pivot. Make them worth buying, give them better close combat qualities and you can build 2 Pios + 2 Grens + MG and you are fine teching T2 getting PGs.

Ost Pios are totally useless for combat at the moment. Even with flamethrowers, they die too quick and don't do any damage. They sometimes even lose versus Soviet engineers or Rear Echelons while having MP40 submachineguns... Thats the reason why Wehr needs minimum 3 Grens, bettter 4 of them (and Allies whine about blobbing/spamming). Just compare them with Royal Engineers. They can get a 5th man, are also close combat with Sten guns, but are way better than Pios. If you manage to get your 4-5 men Royal Engis suqad in cc with a Wehr Grenadier, you really grab them by the pussy!

I don't say they have to be a Sturmpios light version. They just have to be capable of fighting Conscripts, GIs and Tommys in the early game at close, very close range. Penals are more expansive but should also be less potent at close range because semi-auto rifles are not the same as full-auto MPs. Therefore Pios should not be able to extinguish penals in CC but should also do some decent damage.

Pios do actually win against conscripts, rears and soviet engis. They even have a chance to win vs riflemen or penals if they're at point blank range.

imo one should start reducing the power level of infantries (especially early ones) rather then buffing more infatry.

*Give to PzG some kind of buff when they are near tanks or halftracks;

*shreks upgrade after T3 research.

To complete my own ideas:


Give some kind of "dug in" ability to PzG when they are near tanks or halftracks, like the soviets HTD. This PzG Hit the Dirt can have some cooldown when in use (to prevent spam) and will open more tatics with PzG and vehicles, like spearhead pushs in open fields (REAL LIFE TATICS MAN ).

Hit the Dirt

Suppression immunity. Squad will gain 'light' cover(-50% received accuracy.) Squad will not move.

And about AT capacity:


Give to PzG the Panzerbüchse 39 AT rifle upgrade. This weapon will give some light AT to PzG, but will cost less ammo and will maintain some AI capacity to the unit.

Maybe theres voice lines in SP campaign to use that weapon in PzG.

And the last one:


Urban Assault Panzergrenadiers upgrade for the unit. Im not talking about the commander, only an different upgrade for the unit:

Tbh all we need is just the mechanized passive from infantry commander.

Tbh all we need is just the mechanized passive from infantry commander.

+1

I really appreciate this topic, because I also see your concerns Miragefla!

In my opinion the Wehrmacht pioneers are the pivot. Make them worth buying, give them better close combat qualities and you can build 2 Pios + 2 Grens + MG and you are fine teching T2 getting PGs.

Ost Pios are totally useless for combat at the moment. Even with flamethrowers, they die too quick and don't do any damage. They sometimes even lose versus Soviet engineers or Rear Echelons while having MP40 submachineguns... Thats the reason why Wehr needs minimum 3 Grens, bettter 4 of them (and Allies whine about blobbing/spamming). Just compare them with Royal Engineers. They can get a 5th man, are also close combat with Sten guns, but are way better than Pios. If you manage to get your 4-5 men Royal Engis suqad in cc with a Wehr Grenadier, you really grab them by the pussy!

I don't say they have to be a Sturmpios light version. They just have to be capable of fighting Conscripts, GIs and Tommys in the early game at close, very close range. Penals are more expansive but should also be less potent at close range because semi-auto rifles are not the same as full-auto MPs. Therefore Pios should not be able to extinguish penals in CC but should also do some decent damage.

So when you got your 2 Grens at long range and you get your Pios rushing into CC, you should have a good chance to win in early game. MGs would still be a strong counter, so I don't see any unbalance. We already have Sturm Pios and they are also not an issue.

After 5-6 mins you should then be able to get PGs on the field to replace the pioneers. Cause then USF gets BAR, Tommys get 5 men or Brens an Soviet call in Guards, Shocks or upgrade their Cons with PPSH (Penals have Vet 1 and are a lot stronger then)

In conclusion, buff Pioneers a bit and you get some new meta in eraly game.

For PGs in particular, I would give them a smoke grenade as it was proposed in the last Balance Preview Patch. This would give them a better chance to flank enemy MGs and give the Wehrmacht a better offense ability. That's all I would do with PGs.

Pios are one of the strongest engineer units (not counting sturms ofc), probably only matched by royal engineers who come later, are a bit more expensive, don't have a nondoc flamer but can be 5 men nondoc. Pios also get to see really far, which is nice for supporting mgs.

Pios do actually win against conscripts, rears and soviet engis. They even have a chance to win vs riflemen or penals if they're at point blank range.

This.

Pios do actually win against conscripts, rears and soviet engis. They even have a chance to win vs riflemen or penals if they're at point blank range.

I didn't believe you until I tested it myself, they actually do have something of a chance against those two.

I guess point-blank range is just that unrealistic most of the time...

Yes, some people underestimate what pios can do. After gaining vet 2 with them, I'd avoid combat because the repair vet is too valuable to lose.

As I've said earlier, I think a speed bonus while being near tanks and vehicles is probably the best idea. They can therefore keep up with the armor (kind of) and actively support them, just like in the actual war. It's less likely to directly buff their combat ability, but give them a slightly better map presence in the form of mobility.

make them 5 man squad, or give them this squad leader thing from commander (which they'd have it as default) but instead of G43 they get STG and it does not block shrecks upgrade, bam, problem solved

I took some minutes to read most of the post before.
Loving that idea of the mechanized upgrade (bcos pgrens were meant to do that specific role, support mechanized and panzer divisions). Maybe that is enough is that is considered a reasonably small buff.

Pzgrens are not OP nor UP, they lack of propper place as mainline inf and thats why they dont compete for that role. But they do have a shock value, a turning point within OST inf. When you see them coming you know its CQC time, also meanwhile grens take distance, pzgrens rush on.
The fact pzgrens are so expensive for their prupose makes them a "situational" rather "in masse" solution and one not to be spammed. Thats pretty fine as it is.

The G43 plus AT package sounds good too, but to give pzgrens all 3 upgrades simultaneously i find it a little OP. Would be interesting because you will have like 250 muni on a single squd prone to be wiped blow up anytime since most allied heavy explosive and tanks are there already. Still some doctrinal restrictments would be neccesary.

Im very neutral about buffing pzgrens, they are OKish for me