USF got too many buffs

If only they had access to an early mortar, smoke grenades or where good at flanking...

Oh wait they do...

Even pure rifleman spam will get out numbered by OKWs volks spam. So early mortar without mg support is simply a dead mortar.

If only axis had not access to an early mortar with better range or OKW without early infantry advantage. Oh wait they do ...

USF design is build around Riflemen squads but nowadays playing USF is about building the minimum of them and maximum of other units available from your doctrine.
As you mention it, USF today is about Pathfinders or AssEn, early WC51 or fast M20 into Stuart or M8. All of this supported by a minimum 2 HMG.50 and if required Captain/atg, then CavRifle, Paratroops or Rangers are completing the picture.

People have adapted to the lack of Riflemen value before getting them vet2 with 2 BARs. And you can see this from two different angles, or you're happy because of the variety of strategies it offers or your not because you don't see much of old predictable riflemen squad spam strats today.

But see the other part of the picture:
How are you supposed to beat JLI/volks with Obers with Riflemen squads? You bleed like hell and must invest a ton of munition into BARs. Well easy, you don't build much Riflemen and goes for LVs and other more dedicated squads less generalist.
How are you supposed to beat Ostruppen spam with riflemen only, same response as above, you bleed hard until you finally get BARs
How are you supposed to beat 5men gren squad strat: not with more riflemen
Sniper counter has been even more delayed so yeah here again you don't spam riflemen vs sniper
How to counter dual HMG start? not with more riflemen since they don't have smoke anymore
How to counter 221 start, not with riflemen that can't do shit before vet1
How vs dual Sturm start? not with more riflemen
How vs 4 volks start, not with more riflemen since you'll lose the mp war.
How to counter Gren spam, not with more riflemen but Lvs and HMGs
etc...

Riflemen squad has reached the point of being the weakest point of USF design. From being a squad with strengthen and weakness all the game long, we went to a squad that's mostly weak until you invest a lot of munition on it. It was balance when USF had the upper hand early game but not anymore vs OKW dominating the 5 first minutes and Ostheer brought to equal level with more variety.
And don't blame only the balance team for this, everybody here asked for it, to have USF riflemen squad less powerful and forcing the player to use other units.
Are those other units too powerful? well they still necessary need to be good since they kind of lock you into tech and doctrinal choices.
We see it today, very few people goes for T2 as the ATgun doesn't bring much that early in comparison of the HMG, the HT is nice and can suppress on the move but lack of M20 mobility and bleed potential.

Finally a fair explanation to current USF status. Thanks for the effort.

Internal balance.

Individual units are balanced against other units in the same faction, because that's what they compete with.

The faction as a whole is balanced against other factions, and that's strongest strategy versus strongest strategy.



OKW Battlegroup being weaker than OKW Mechanized doesn't make OKW as a whole weaker, it just means OKW always goes for Mechanized builds.

Likewise, nerf the AAHT and USF'll just always go the already stronger Lieutenant strategy. It does nothing to their external balance. It just reduces strategic diversity within the faction.

No individual unit are balanced around a benchmark unit.

USF have the option to choose their building, Ostheer and UKF do not and that does not make them less balanced.

If both build where equally good it would be plus but trying to make both build orders equally good is chasing a chimera especially across different maps.

Most importantly units should not be balanced around that concept having units made OP or UP just to achieve equal strong build orders.

And there other solutions like, one could move the mortar to Captain and make the Pak howizter doctrinal.

Please do it. Please turn USF into a dead faction completely and let them to deal with MG+Mortar+Sniper+Volks+Strum with the mixture of assault engineer and rifleman and maybe some path finders which are yummy targets for mortar and mg. Or simply delete USF from the game. So I don't have to play with USF teammate anymore.

Are you joking ? USF is nearly unplayable in team game without infantry company. The time when you having the arguable best team weapon that you claimed, the stuka comes immediately. And I really can't find any OP T0 call in infantry that can actually win an OKW engineer in 1v1 engagement. Are we playing the same game?

The game is balanced around 1v1...
Edit: and 2v2s...

Even pure rifleman spam will get out numbered by OKWs volks spam. So early mortar without mg support is simply a dead mortar.

If only axis had not access to an early mortar with better range or OKW without early infantry advantage. Oh wait they do ...

Sooo..you are complaining that axis ( 2 different factions) work together (since okw has neither early mg or mortar) and beat you alone with only US?

U got teamwork'd mate

Sooo..you are complaining that axis ( 2 different factions) work together (since okw has neither early mg or mortar) and beat you alone with only US?

U got teamwork'd mate

What if my teammate is USF also? So we both have nothing to do in first 5 minute

USF got changed from smoke&flank type of faction with versatile mainline infantry being the most important part (in theory since riflemen are weak for a long time now) to a faction that relies on strong cqc callin units attacking frontally. Instead of making rifles viable by decreasing their cost and cost of the upgrades we got some okw type units that win fights by frontally charging opponent. In short usf got dumbed down but its not overbuffed.

What if my teammate is USF also? So we both have nothing to do in first 5 minute

Thats alot of infantry to screen for your so vulnerable mortar. Or REs with smoke.

USF got changed from smoke&flank type of faction with versatile mainline infantry being the most important part (in theory since riflemen are weak for a long time now) to a faction that relies on strong cqc callin units attacking frontally. Instead of making rifles viable by decreasing their cost and cost of the upgrades we got some okw type units that win fights by frontally charging opponent. In short usf got dumbed down but its not overbuffed.

People like you wanted USF to be buffed with OKM abilities or similar, or even better, and now you complaint...

No individual unit are balanced around a benchmark unit.

They're not.

You might think they should be, but you only need to look at the 450 MP Infantry Section in CoH 1 or the equally priced MG42 and Maxim in CoH 2 to see that's not how Relic thinks.

They don't price Riflemen based on Grenadiers, because you never have a choice between building Riflemen and building Grenadiers: they're in different factions. Riflemen are priced against .50 cals and Rear Echelons.

Same with Soviet: the Maxim is priced against Conscripts, Penal Troops, Snipers, Mortars. Not against the HMG42.

The M10 Wolverine isn't competing with the StuG or the JPIV, it's competing with the Jackson. It's never been a bad unit, but it got buffed up to its current level because it has to compete for fuel with the M36.

The Vickers didn't get a price drop a few patches ago because it was weaker than the MG42, it got a price drop to make it more competitive against the Infantry Section.

When balancing factions against each other, you look at the entire army and its dominant strategies. Nothing exists in isolation.

IMO USF "free" officers is a unique concept that sets USF apart from other factions so this should probably stay. Same goes for the ambulance and the tank crews.

What has to be changed is that the air dropped weapons need to start costing more MP so spamming them isn´t as easy.

The Paratrooper + Pak Howi combo is still too good and gives USF too much of a power increase in early game.

I would also like to see regular Pathfinders starting on a cooldown like IR Pathfinders.

I dont understand why the 50cal needs to be as good as it is either. It´s a bit like if OKW got the Ost HMG42. 50cal should honestly be more of a Maxim than a competitor of best COH2 HMG.

M20 needs to get toned down slighty, it got buffed while being made cheaper which is never a good combo. It´s a bit weird that the 223 costs as much as the M20 while being WAY worse in combat.

Riflemen are not even nearly as bad as people claim, apart from the first 5-10 minutes against OKW they are really good infantry with snare and cheap grenade access. Vet 3 double bar riflemen eat Axis mainline infantry for breakfast, not sure why people chose to ignore that. I would consider them pretty well balanced overall, same as Volks.

People like you wanted USF to be buffed with OKM abilities or similar, or even better, and now you complaint...

I wanted riflemen to be viable and some adjustments to doctrinal vehicles which mostly suck, not usf turned into braindead faction that okw is.

It´s a bit weird that the 223 costs as much as the M20 while being WAY worse in combat.

Maybe because you're paying for a huge amount of utility?

It is also not way worse in combat. A vet3 223 is very strong.

M20 needs to get toned down slighty, it got buffed while being made cheaper which is never a good combo. It´s a bit weird that the 223 costs as much as the M20 while being WAY worse in combat.

Riflemen are not even nearly as bad as people claim, apart from the first 5-10 minutes against OKW they are really good infantry with snare and cheap grenade access. Vet 3 double bar riflemen eat Axis mainline infantry for breakfast, not sure why people chose to ignore that. I would consider them pretty well balanced overall, same as Volks.

Ostheer's 221 super cheap price and good performance is one of the reason the M20 got this buff, you can't reasonably nerf the M20 when for a similar price at almost similar time you get something that fight better. OKW 223 also have the luxury to get raketen support which is not the case for the M20.

Losing the first 5-10 minutes vs OKW usually seal the game. Now if you ask about Oshteer, I think the matchup is much more balanced.

Where I'm agreeing with you is that putting the M20 and Stuart on the same tier brought back Strong LV play for the USF, Making the M8 1 CP cheaper and giving CP bonus to USF construction also help in that sense.
Ostheer and OKW can't anymore just outspam USF with volks and gren aiming to win the manpower war, the comeback of the M20 and such force them into building AT units. And I don't think it is bad or unbalanced.

They're not.

You might think they should be, but you only need to look at the 450 MP Infantry Section in CoH 1 or the equally priced MG42 and Maxim in CoH 2 to see that's not how Relic thinks.

They don't price Riflemen based on Grenadiers, because you never have a choice between building Riflemen and building Grenadiers: they're in different factions. Riflemen are priced against .50 cals and Rear Echelons.

Same with Soviet: the Maxim is priced against Conscripts, Penal Troops, Snipers, Mortars. Not against the HMG42.

The M10 Wolverine isn't competing with the StuG or the JPIV, it's competing with the Jackson. It's never been a bad unit, but it got buffed up to its current level because it has to compete for fuel with the M36.

The Vickers didn't get a price drop a few patches ago because it was weaker than the MG42, it got a price drop to make it more competitive against the Infantry Section.

When balancing factions against each other, you look at the entire army and its dominant strategies. Nothing exists in isolation.

Since I have been part of all the alpha and beta groups, I am actually in position to know and not just "think".

You should probably check this articles and get more informative opinion:
https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/PeterQumsieh/20150115/233644/Balancing_Multiplayer_Games__Intuition_Iteration_and_Numbers.php and some other of his articles...

IMO USF "free" officers is a unique concept that sets USF apart from other factions so this should probably stay. Same goes for the ambulance and the tank crews.

Its not unique, axis gets free upgrades and emplacements with tech (in okw case), usf gets free officers with tech.

What has to be changed is that the air dropped weapons need to start costing more MP so spamming them isn´t as easy.

Like it was before rework when nobody used these doctrines and pershing was the only viable doctrine?

I would also like to see regular Pathfinders starting on a cooldown like IR Pathfinders.

0cp callin squads are basicly balance team saying that they wont make riflemen viable so instead we have to use these callins if we want to win.

I dont understand why the 50cal needs to be as good as it is either. It´s a bit like if OKW got the Ost HMG42. 50cal should honestly be more of a Maxim than a competitor of best COH2 HMG.

So the small cone of fire, deathloop and high cost is not enough? Again usf cant have good units even if you pay for it? If you cant flank 50cal there is no hope you will ever beat ost player using mg42.

M20 needs to get toned down slighty, it got buffed while being made cheaper which is never a good combo. It´s a bit weird that the 223 costs as much as the M20 while being WAY worse in combat.

You know why? Because 223 serves the role of uber fuel cache that can double your fuel income from fuel point. Dont compare these 2 units since they serve different purpose.

Riflemen are not even nearly as bad as people claim, apart from the first 5-10 minutes against OKW they are really good infantry with snare and cheap grenade access. Vet 3 double bar riflemen eat Axis mainline infantry for breakfast, not sure why people chose to ignore that. I would consider them pretty well balanced overall, same as Volks.

You know what is the most importand timeframe for usf? Yes the first 5-10 minutes of the game, so you can actually use your supposed early game superiority and strong light vehicle phase before the crippled late game comes. Why are people ignoring double bar riflemen beating the shit out of everyone? Because for some reason this doenst happen in close game between 2 equaly matched opponents. The muni investment, the fact you will start dropping weapons during engagements, bleeding more munition and the fact double bar riflemen are still less cost efficient than ober with mg34 is the reason why people are avoiding riflemen and ESPECIALLY avoiding double upgrades on them. Elite squads are much more cost efficient, no matter if we are talking about usf or other factions.

I hardly think quoting a Relic employee on how to balance is going to be very impressive. With every and all due respect for the products they produced, balance was in a terrible state for years with completely broken faction releases like OKW and UKF on top. Company of Heroes series are awesome games, but were far from being the pinnacle of balance.

Last year has seen the best balance the game has ever seen IMO. I think USF is fine for now. Do some units need adjusting after the core of the faction was changed? Probably, in time. But there are no glaring issues.

Since I have been part of all the alpha and beta groups, I am actually in position to know and not just "think".

You should probably check this articles and get more informative opinion:
https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/PeterQumsieh/20150115/233644/Balancing_Multiplayer_Games__Intuition_Iteration_and_Numbers.php and some other of his articles...

If that really is how they do it, then some of their balancing decisions are...

...unexpected.

Are you joking ? USF is nearly unplayable in team game without infantry company. The time when you having the arguable best team weapon that you claimed, the stuka comes immediately. And I really can't find any OP T0 call in infantry that can actually win an OKW engineer in 1v1 engagement. Are we playing the same game?

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