Received Accuracy for OKW JLI and USF Pathfinder

Let's try not to derail the thread, which is supposed to be about JLI.

Carry on.

Let's try not to derail the thread, which is supposed to be about JLI.

Carry on.

why a u block my reply?

JLI and vet 5 system is Closely related, not off topic

can u explain why JLI is more durable than PF without vet 5 system?

This is unfair

or blocking the fact and tyranny is your answer?

The vet 5 system is one of many vestigial remains of the original, awful design of OKW.

They could only secure a handful of sectors. They were starved of fuel and munitions. They were expected to bunker in on a corner of the map and fight a numerically superior foe with elite troops and vehicles floated on a backbone of Volks.

This was also when the cancerous old school mentality of ‘If Axis survive to late game they get a free win’ was riding high. Contrary to all historical context, where the Axis early war gains were purely based on speed and shock – not raw strength. The giants on either side took time to get going, but they absolutely had every long term advantage possible. But I digress.

It was awful. It was rightly ditched. A lot of that terrible concept has been fixed! The base defences no longer shoot planes, their resource income was normalized alongside their unit costs, the conversion abilities were removed.

However, some relics of that past remain, and Relic (lel) most likely won’t ever find the people or funds to fix them. Vet 5 should be for nobody or for everybody. They still have base defences that deny light vehicles despite being no more vulnerable to them. They still have an IR halftrack and plane-free offmap recon.

At the least, the Vet 5 system was retooled. A bit. It still is far from perfect.


That said, JLI are bust even without it. They are unit sniping recon squads. Pathfinders are a GOOD example of this. They are fragile and expensive and help swing fights by focusing down low health models.

JLI are bad. They do the same thing as Pathfinders – but also, they are incredibly durable. And their snipe point is so high that they can trigger it totally solo.

There is absolutely no need for JLI to become so durable at any vet.

...That said, JLI are bust even without it. They are unit sniping recon squads. Pathfinders are a GOOD example of this. They are fragile and expensive and help swing fights by focusing down low health models.

JLI are bad. They do the same thing as Pathfinders – but also, they are incredibly durable. And their snipe point is so high that they can trigger it totally solo.

There is absolutely no need for JLI to become so durable at any vet.

Nice bias spotted there. I just leave that there. BTW JLI are better sniping than pathfinders, if that werent the case there wont be like 10 threads ranting about JLI. But thats none of my business.

Why should anyone believe your words if you are not able to elaborate how you get to those reasonings? Pathfinders are meant to support riflemen but JLI is meant as a single standalone flanking infantry. You can see that by their numbers, and their mainlines infantries they accompany. Hence JLI durability is to make up for their reduced number and risky positioning in order to succed, they mimic the jaeger command squad or long range stormtroopers. IMO the cover ignore bonus is not wanted, since they CAN flank and also they can FRONTLINE with the cover reduction bonus. But hey, i am giving reasons, its not that hard.

I think if people could vote between having its durability or its sniping ability, everyone will be happier, but lets not nerf to the ground some unit because it found some use. No one likes that and the graveyard of meganerfed units keeps growing.

I think i said this before, JLI != Pathfinders.

Nice bias spotted there. I just leave that there. BTW JLI are better sniping than pathfinders, if that werent the case there wont be like 10 threads ranting about JLI. But thats none of my business.

Reading comprehension time

Pathfinders are a good example because they function well. JLI are not because they are preforming excessively well.

Why should anyone believe your words if you are not able to elaborate how you get to those reasonings? Pathfinders are meant to support riflemen but JLI is meant as a single standalone flanking infantry. You can see that by their numbers, and their mainlines infantries they accompany. Hence JLI durability is to make up for their reduced number and risky positioning in order to succed, they mimic the jaeger command squad or long range stormtroopers. IMO the cover ignore bonus is not wanted, since they CAN flank and also they can FRONTLINE with the cover reduction bonus. But hey, i am giving reasons, its not that hard.

Can you count?

Pathfinders are a 4 man squad. JLI are a 4 man squad.

They both have model crits, high line of sight, and are doctrinal call in with a 10mp difference. Both of them are described as recon support units. Both of them are described as light infantry. There is no closer comparison possible. Even if your interpretation of their 'role' is correct, currently with the higher snipe HP threshold and better durability JLI are better than Pathfinders at supporting units never mind going solo.

No Light Infantry is ever supposed to be super durable and also a standalone flanker. That is a commando, or equivalent elite infantry.

Because JLI have high LOS, ignore cover and snipe models they never need to be in risky positions to do well at all. Their optimal use is behind heavy cover at maximum range, where nothing else can currently even try and compete once they get vet 2 and the RA bonuses begin to apply.

I think if people could vote between having its durability or its sniping ability, everyone will be happier, but lets not nerf to the ground some unit because it found some use. No one likes that and the graveyard of meganerfed units keeps growing.

I think i said this before, JLI != Pathfinders.

JLI are the exact same unit as Pathfinders with minor army differnces.

If you want a long range combat squad take Fusliers. If you want a high damage flanking squad take Fallschirms. Or play brits and take commandos, or just use stormtroopers as Ost.


Which if the two should stay - RA or snipes - is a possibly interesting question. But the game's description of the unit makes it abundantly clear that they were conceived as a light support unit, not a fire-soaking lone operator.

Reading comprehension time

Pathfinders are a good example because they function well. JLI are not because they are preforming excessively well.

As long as that is your opinion, that will stay as that, dont confuse reality with your OWN perception of reality. This "reading comprehension" is rather easy to do, as long as you do it too...

Can you count?

Pathfinders are a 4 man squad. JLI are a 4 man squad.

For some reason i remembered Pathfinders as 5 man squads, i havent used them in a while but thats my bad, anyways thnx for the free hostility.

They both have model crits, high line of sight, and are doctrinal call in with a 10mp difference. Both of them are described as recon support units. Both of them are described as light infantry. There is no closer comparison possible. Even if your interpretation of their 'role' is correct, currently with the higher snipe HP threshold and better durability JLI are better than Pathfinders at supporting units never mind going solo.

All this paragraph just to say, JLI are better than pathfinders, yeah we all already know that. Funny thing is that both factions also compete for the best mainline inf. Sadly USF still has the best mainline inf title, as long as some nonretard player uses riflemen properly. Therefore JLI being better at their "role" makes scales balanced. One faction has better flankers and the other has better raw power troops.

No Light Infantry is ever supposed to be super durable and also a standalone flanker. That is a commando, or equivalent elite infantry.

If JLI had smgs they will perform as commandos, but they have the extra "elite" in them, being able to snipe instead of exposing themselves into the line of fire. But hey, i dont like the concept that much neither, its just what it is.
Maybe their hidden role is meant to counter infntry as some specialised AI troop, like penals. Also JLI have to face riflemen and IS meanwhile Pathfinders face volks and grens. Volks are more cost efficient than riflemen but the latter are better trading than grens, which means the pathfinders are better facing OST grens and HMG rather than volks, such consideration is important, because no one discuss the fact that dedicated AT destroys reliably any armour, in this case the threshold is thinner but certain, for volks go for riflemen assisted with pathfinders. For grens you can exploit pathfinders superiority. On the other side JLI need to withstand the superior offensive power of allied early pushes, hence their durability. But also to make them some use against IS they have such high snipe threshold, because otherwise they will fall like flies, even if they properly flanked.
Again im just setting up the commongrownd, wether you like or not, the facts show why JLI have their stats. Maybe we can work around a solution and decide if JLI should be effective against the 3 factions of the allied side. As long as pathfinders can counter both axis faction, it should be as it is.

Because JLI have high LOS, ignore cover and snipe models they never need to be in risky positions to do well at all. Their optimal use is behind heavy cover at maximum range, where nothing else can currently even try and compete once they get vet 2 and the RA bonuses begin to apply.

This is a very valid point against JLI. If they are meant to assault and provide flanking support, they should not be able to hold their ground so much. We both agree on that.
As long as i dont like to compare JLI and pathF, both of them are good at defending its position, its very hypocrite to focus on one but ignore the fact that the other does the same, this is a doble fault of the game design.

JLI are the exact same unit as Pathfinders with minor army differnces.

Let me use you own phrase, mr "reading comprehension" one is a recon squad with sniping and the other is a light infantry elite squad. If you dont believe me i invite you to take a military reading about the topic. Still we can agree that they perform about the same role, because both factions have similar focus on offensive flanking strats.

If you want a long range combat squad take Fusliers. If you want a high damage flanking squad take Fallschirms. Or play brits and take commandos, or just use stormtroopers as Ost.

Sad thing that Fusiliers are a completely different doctrinal ability, fallshjr too (and they are a bit underwhelming too), Playing another faction is an unnecesary whine as long as JLI are part of the OKM rooster and stormtroopers are just another design far different from the "recon light inf". So none of those mentioned options are viables in a sensible way speaking.

Which if the two should stay - RA or snipes - is a possibly interesting question. But the game's description of the unit makes it abundantly clear that they were conceived as a light support unit, not a fire-soaking lone operator.

As long as your "reading comprehension" goes, a fire soaking lone operator (group) means a squad with so much hp that withstands effective incoming fire. Since RA means a % to hit the troop, instead of raw HP, you are "literally" wrong, JLI are not fire soaking, they are more like fire evasive troops. Blame it on their camoflage, or their better training. Im not playing that card though, i just said they should not benefit that much, their standalone RA and also heavy cover bonuses.

The problem with JLI is the anti-cover rifle: it's like they've got a long range flamer.

I think that sort of weapon shouldn't be in the game at all, but the Balance Team's economy alterations seem to be doing the job of curbing the dominance of JLI spam.



Pathfinders have similar mechanics but work completely differently in practice: they've got two sniper rifles but a low crit threshold (40% health) and obey cover rules. The idea with Pathfinders is you combine them with a squad that can set up the crits and they deal a ton of damage in snipes.

The design idea is:

• Pathfinder x1 < Rifleman x1
  
• Rifleman x2 < Pathfinder x1 + Rifleman x1

How well that works in practice is difficult to tell.

Err... But Pathfinder's M1 Carbine is better than JLI's K98k.

Err... But Pathfinder's M1 Carbine is better than JLI's K98k.

But dropping models sooner and ignoring cover makes JLI independent instead of a support squad.

But dropping models sooner and ignoring cover makes JLI independent instead of a support squad.

Could you please proof that JLI kill Allies' mainline infantry faster than Pathfinder kill Axies' mainline infantry?

Could you please proof that JLI kill Allies' mainline infantry faster than Pathfinder kill Axies' mainline infantry?

JLI higher crit threshold and the fact they ignore cover makes them seem to drop models a lot quicker than pathfinders. I’d say Pathfinders likely have better dps but the whole ignore a fundamental game mechanic thing helps JLI a lot.

Could you please proof that JLI kill Allies' mainline infantry faster than Pathfinder kill Axies' mainline infantry?

The sooner a model drops the less targets there are the more focus fire the quicker a units health drops the quicker its sniped the less targets there are the more focus fire there is the quicker a units health drops the quicker its sniped.

JLI need do deal 24 points of damage to a model before its eligible for a snipe. Thats ~3 hits at most with any sort of rifle at that point the model could be immediately removed from play (he dead)

Paths need a model to drop by 48 before they are eligible to snipe (that's double the damage, about 6 connecting shots into a single model). They have double the snipers but doubt the also double damage needing dealt before they can model snipe. JLI snowball as seen in the earlier part of this post. The sooner you can kill a model the better as your models have less targets (odds of hitting the same one enough times to drop the health to the threshold increases) and receive less fire (enemy volume of fire is reduced)

In addition, ignoring cover is massive.
And if the attack from camoed and get that sweet sweet 50% accuracy bonus which for some reason isn't consistently applied at ALL then it's guaranteed hits

To put it extremely: which would be better? A standard sniper (with 4 models of course) or one that has 4 models all with sniper rifles that crit at 10hp?

Paths are great SUPPORT, allowing them to pick off models that other ubits damage, but JLI are the best at soloing enemy units and turning into a critical mass doom ball. But at least they increased the price by a whooping 30mp and 15mu!

The sooner a model drops the less targets there are the more focus fire the quicker a units health drops the quicker its sniped the less targets there are the more focus fire there is the quicker a units health drops the quicker its sniped.

JLI need do deal 24 points of damage to a model before its eligible for a snipe. Thats ~3 hits at most with any sort of rifle at that point the model could be immediately removed from play (he dead)

Paths need a model to drop by 48 before they are eligible to snipe (that's double the damage, about 6 connecting shots into a single model). They have double the snipers but doubt the also double damage needing dealt before they can model snipe. JLI snowball as seen in the earlier part of this post. The sooner you can kill a model the better as your models have less targets (odds of hitting the same one enough times to drop the health to the threshold increases) and receive less fire (enemy volume of fire is reduced)

In addition, ignoring cover is massive.
And if the attack from camoed and get that sweet sweet 50% accuracy bonus which for some reason isn't consistently applied at ALL then it's guaranteed hits

To put it extremely: which would be better? A standard sniper (with 4 models of course) or one that has 4 models all with sniper rifles that crit at 10hp?

Paths are great SUPPORT, allowing them to pick off models that other ubits damage, but JLI are the best at soloing enemy units and turning into a critical mass doom ball. But at least they increased the price by a whooping 30mp and 15mu!

But the average number of models in every squad is different between Axies and Allies. That's why Ost sniper has higher rate of fire than Sov sniper.

If you want to include scoped G43 upgrade, you should give Pathfinder one Bar, too. They both cost 60 ammunition. I will run some tests and post the result as videos later.

JLI has everything for Long-range combat specialist.

can camo
can sprint
can booby
can snipe under 75% health
insane target size

sick of this balance

But the average number of models in every squad is different between Axies and Allies. That's why Ost sniper has higher rate of fire than Sov sniper.

If you want to include scoped G43 upgrade, you should give Pathfinder one Bar, too. They both cost 60 ammunition. I will run some tests and post the result as videos later.

The extra model (on average) is more than offset by the insane accuracy, but you have insanely low damage threshold for the crit, ignoring cover and a 50%bonus accuracy (which is the same reduction that cover gives actually) out of camo are all icing in the cake.

Additionally the BAR comparison would work better if it wasn't locked behind a 25 fuel and armful of manpower and a requirement of running back to base.

Tbh if they want to make them fine I think they just need to make the snipes cost munitions as they are already a potent squad outside the snipe. Make it a vet 1 just to avoid over use. The munitions cost for the sniper could be brought back down to 45 then and you could still have it ignore cover (1 man with a rifle igniting cover is a hell of a lot less gamebreaking than a 4 man sniper squad). This would also fix the problem of being able to snipe retreating squads with over 100% accuracy out ov cover as the ability can be given a modifier against it.

Maybe JLI could be reworked and nerfed a little, but honestly i love the pathfinder no muni / cp 0 strat. For sure pathfinders should not be buffed, they are in the perfect spot now.

But the average number of models in every squad is different between Axies and Allies. That's why Ost sniper has higher rate of fire than Sov sniper.

If you want to include scoped G43 upgrade, you should give Pathfinder one Bar, too. They both cost 60 ammunition. I will run some tests and post the result as videos later.

Average number of squad members for axis is 5(sooooo many volks).
Average number of squad members for allies is 5 as well, because soviets are not the only allied faction in game.

Both snipers shoot often at 4 and 6 man squads.
Also, both snipers were normalized long time ago and shoot pretty much just as often.

And yes, you SHOULD include scoped G43, because squad is NOT meant to be used without it, its gated behind upgrade to keep the squad cheap mp-wise and to not allow quick stacking of potent AI weapons as scoped G43s and volk STGs are brutal combination.