Ostheer MG/Early

And soviets were designed to spam conscripts, get 1 tier for early game and 1 tier for late game.
It doesn't matter how factions were designed in 2013.

OST != Soviets

In other words dont change the subject unless its productive.

Remember mg42 has strong suppression unless units are behind green cover. Damage wise it's best up close. Right now it's Ost's crutch vs most things however if it gets stolen or harassed by light vehicles it becomes ineffective. Without a strong mg42 Ost would have a harder time vs inf blobs.

Without a strong mg42 Ost would have a harder time vs inf blobs.

like every faction in fact.

like every faction in fact.

Gren blob is the weakest blob in fact.

Gren blob is the weakest blob in fact.

And how did you decide that? And what's the point?

And how did you decide that? And what's the point?

What was your point?
Gren blobs are 4 man squads. If you fail to see how that is weaker than a 5man mainline inf blob i cant help.

What was your point?
Gren blobs are 4 man squads. If you fail to see how that is weaker than a 5man mainline inf blob i cant help.

I know you can't help explaining your argumentation since it's completely wrong.

What was your point?
Gren blobs are 4 man squads. If you fail to see how that is weaker than a 5man mainline inf blob i cant help.

Cons are 6 men but make a much worse blob than volks at 5 men. If you can't see there is more to a squad than their model count I can't help.

Cons are 6 men but make a much worse blob than volks at 5 men. If you can't see there is more to a squad than their model count I can't help.

If you use an underpowered infantry to compare fine, but add in ppsh and they are sure stronger. Doenst change lethality is to high for grens to blob them effectivly

I guess thats the reason why we see so much grensblob in comparison to rifle,IS,Volks and penal blobs.

Just to clarify, blob counter is AoE, and 4 models are way more prone to beeing wiped by AoE. Yes conscripts have more models, but we all now that conscripts are not Strong at the moment.

If you use an underpowered infantry to compare fine, but add in ppsh and they are sure stronger. Doenst change lethality is to high for grens to blob them effectivly

I guess thats the reason why we see so much grensblob in comparison to rifle,IS,Volks and penal blobs.

Just to clarify, blob counter is AoE, and 4 models are way more prone to beeing wiped by AoE. Yes conscripts have more models, but we all now that conscripts are not Strong at the moment.

And what AOE has to do with the HMG42? The initial remark was about Ostheer having the HMG42 because it counters blob like if only Oshteer were facing blobs.

And what AOE has to do with the HMG42? The initial remark was about Ostheer having the HMG42 because it counters blob like if only Oshteer were facing blobs.

Other factions can counterblob

If you use an underpowered infantry to compare fine, but add in ppsh and they are sure stronger. Doenst change lethality is to high for grens to blob them effectivly

I guess thats the reason why we see so much grensblob in comparison to rifle,IS,Volks and penal blobs.

Just to clarify, blob counter is AoE, and 4 models are way more prone to beeing wiped by AoE. Yes conscripts have more models, but we all now that conscripts are not Strong at the moment.

You are using metric of how Gren blob prone to wipes to AoE in comparison to other faction blobs to justify performance of Wehrmacht HMG over other HMGs.

The only logical connection I see here is the assumption that "you don't want to use Grens in blobs (because they are prone to wipes from AoE) therefore it is ok for factions opposing Wehrmacht (Allied factions) to have weaker HMGs".

If that is what you wanted to say then it is wrong due to these facts:

- Wehrmacht is not only faction on Axis side and volksblob is strong against Vickers because low suppression and 4-man crew and against Maxim because of deathloop. The only good option here is USF HMG, but this is what OP said.

- Grens (blobbed or not) are as strong against HMG as other factions infantry because how their LMG good in picking off models (which is the way how HMG fall if attacked frontally) and because of range of rifle grenade

EDIT: okay, you've said other thing -

Other factions can counterblob

Well, this is the worst and most disgisting thing to do in this game. This is not Starcraft or other "blob vs blob"-style title. I see you point - you state that Allied infantry is stronger and therefore they can't have equally strong HMG. But I disagreee with both points. HMGs should work well on both sides.
END OF EDIT

Personally, I disagree with both you and OP. Grens are not that weak and MG-42 is strong, but not as unbeatable, as you, guys, trying to portrait them.

I always value consistency over anything else - random wipe potential, cost effectiveness, whatever.
If I get HMG I want to get a tool against blobs. I don't want to pick off models as Vickers does, I don't need so-called "offensive HMG" as Maxim was labeled here by some people. I want AoE suppression tool. A no-go zone for enemy infantry.

For me the balance problem is not in "MG-42 OP" but in allied HMGs not doing their job despite some of them cost the same or even more while being locked behind certain tier, doctrine and just plain timing.

MG42 has been like that for a few years. Most people are fine with it, so if you are not able to deal with it, it is really a you problem instead of the game's. Also, please take the asymmetrical balancing into the consideration. Maxim isn't shit. Maxim + guards is actually a valid tactic against t2 opening okw. Most team game maps are pretty terrible and they are clusterfucks one way or another. Every team game is pretty much the process of a team to figure out a broken strategy and stomp the other one. So if you choose to play the clusterfuck, please don't complain about it.

I'm not good enough to make any sort of conclusion here, so I will simply speak from my experience as OST main.
Even a minor nerf to MP cost (let's say 280mp), would be hugely detrimental to OST early game, for the following reason; a common strat is to rush an MG42 into a building on your opponent(s) side of the map, usually next to their closest fuel point.
By increasing the cost of the MG, it further delays your first gren squad. Resulting in less map control and leaving the MG unsupported longer. I don't want to repeat what others have said, but I tend to agree that the over-performance of the MG42 is a necessary crutch to keep OST viable before doctirnal weapons/ugrades hit the field.
Combine this with a heavy reliance on fuel and weak early game infantry; frankly I don't know how OST would remain competitive.
The only MG that really seems to be under-performing to me, is the maxim. Though as I'm sure we're all aware that does not make SOV a weak faction. To buff the maxim you'd have to sacrifice something, though that's beyond the scope of the post.

MG42 has been like that for a few years. Most people are fine with it, so if you are not able to deal with it, it is really a you problem instead of the game's. Also, please take the asymmetrical balancing into the consideration. Maxim isn't shit.

It's shit compared to the 42, which has the same price but doesn't need a building. No one's ignoring assymetry, the gap just doesn't need to be this big.

Very tired of people saying "assymetrical balance" like it ends the conversation. It doesn't, look at AT guns. Aside from the Rak their performance is all much more consistent, and the Rak is still very capable just in a different way.

It's shit compared to the 42, which has the same price but doesn't need a building. No one's ignoring assymetry, the gap just doesn't need to be this big.

Very tired of people saying "assymetrical balance" like it ends the conversation. It doesn't, look at AT guns. Aside from the Rak their performance is all much more consistent, and the Rak is still very capable just in a different way.

Just to clarify:
You think ostheer needs a nerf..why?
For me, personally, ostheer is really weak this patch.

Just to clarify:
You think ostheer needs a nerf..why?
For me, personally, ostheer is really weak this patch.

I think it's more "a price increase to bridge the gap of performance to cost because relic loathes the maxim and will NOT have it doing anything but deathlooping into 5 free fuel"

Put it this way: as any faction. ANY. there is maybe a 1% chance that if I see a maxim laying on the ground that I would grab it. Anything less than a 6 man crew and its absolutely unusable and even with a 6 man crew it barely performs anyways before it gets killed frontally. If you see any other MG, even an MG34 you grab it because you know it will do its job.

But you pay the same for a 42 and a maxim.

I think it's more "a price increase to bridge the gap of performance to cost because relic loathes the maxim and will NOT have it doing anything but deathlooping into 5 free fuel"

Is that hard to say: "OST DOESNT NEED A NERF"?

Put it this way: as any faction. ANY. there is maybe a 1% chance that if I see a maxim laying on the ground that I would grab it. Anything less than a 6 man crew and its absolutely unusable and even with a 6 man crew it barely performs anyways before it gets killed frontally. If you see any other MG, even an MG34 you grab it because you know it will do its job.

But you pay the same for a 42 and a maxim.

Thats why a MG42 is worth stealing... And even more if you are using SU.

Again I love this "smart" idea of comparing fully working axis units to completely broken allied ones. Its like begging for axis nerfs.

I think it's more "a price increase to bridge the gap of performance to cost because relic loathes the maxim and will NOT have it doing anything but deathlooping into 5 free fuel"

For different factions, units which have similar price do have different performance, for example, Ostwind and Centaur, Assault Grenadiers and Assault Engineers.

If I had to make a change for the HMG42, I'll reduce its arc of fire at vet0 by 30% and give him back at vet1.