2v2 balance

Hello,
I am just an average player, but let's talk about balance on 2v2(i know in those forums your more interested by 1v1 balance) :
I am generally called noob when i loose as soviet(and actually i loose a lot), but 70% of players look for a game on the german side. Why ?
In allmost every departement of the game german are superior to soviets on 2v2 games :
Except the very early game, germans have hard counters to soviets:
1/ Bunkers and mg's : in team games if they cover well each other you need a M3 with flamers to deal with them. The survivability of this thing is really really low.
2 / T2 german rush : Flame halftracks/scout cars are a pain to deal with, guards are only a soft counter to them. It takes ages to build T2 building to get an AT gun. So going for snipers is very risky. Ostwind is insta retreat oftenly.
3 / Combined arms = as state above it takes ages to build the T2 building. So going for combiened arms takes so long your generally on the defense or germans have locked down key positions.
4/ T3 : T34 can't face panzer 4 on their own. You need 2 of them to get a Pz4. due to german superiority very early it is very hard to deny them the fuel to be faster than them. German T4 owns badly T3 soviet.
4/ T4 : SU 85 shoots well, but again german have hard counters easily. Panzergrenadiers
spam is very common on 2v2, they wreck SU 85 very quicly. Non upgraded with panzershrecks they eat conscripts really fast too. A vet 1 german tank can rush you easily and outmanoeuver you easily too. Again you need guards to hold them.
I won't even talk about elephant which deny very large portion of maps to all your tanks. You just have to have a ostwind or a few pg near it and you have locked all tanks and infantry of the soviets.

So the best way is to get a combined arms army (guards soft counters to vehicles, very long times to build buildings)on the soviet side to be able to manage allmost every stage of the 2v2 games an endless hill, unless you really outplay your opponents.

Please refrain the flame and lets discuss about solutions to have a well balanced 2v2 game.(sorry for my bad english)

Hello,
I am just an average player, but let's talk about balance on 2v2(i know in those forums your more interested by 1v1 balance) :
I am generally called noob when i loose as soviet(and actually i loose a lot), but 70% of players look for a game on the german side. Why ?
In allmost every departement of the game german are superior to soviets on 2v2 games :
Except the very early game, germans have hard counters to soviets:
1/ Bunkers and mg's : in team games if they cover well each other you need a M3 with flamers to deal with them. The survivability of this thing is really really low.
2 / T2 german rush : Flame halftracks/scout cars are a pain to deal with, guards are only a soft counter to them. It takes ages to build T2 building to get an AT gun. So going for snipers is very risky. Ostwind is insta retreat oftenly.
3 / Combined arms = as state above it takes ages to build the T2 building. So going for combiened arms takes so long your generally on the defense or germans have locked down key positions.
4/ T3 : T34 can't face panzer 4 on their own. You need 2 of them to get a Pz4. due to german superiority very early it is very hard to deny them the fuel to be faster than them. German T4 owns badly T3 soviet.
4/ T4 : SU 85 shoots well, but again german have hard counters easily. Panzergrenadiers
spam is very common on 2v2, they wreck SU 85 very quicly. Non upgraded with panzershrecks they eat conscripts really fast too. A vet 1 german tank can rush you easily and outmanoeuver you easily too. Again you need guards to hold them.
I won't even talk about elephant which deny very large portion of maps to all your tanks. You just have to have a ostwind or a few pg near it and you have locked all tanks and infantry of the soviets.

So the best way is to get a combined arms army (guards soft counters to vehicles, very long times to build buildings)on the soviet side to be able to manage allmost every stage of the 2v2 games an endless hill, unless you really outplay your opponents.

Please refrain the flame and lets discuss about solutions to have a well balanced 2v2 game.(sorry for my bad english)

Sounds like you are doing it all wrong. Soviets are actually very strong in 2v2. One of you should spam cons, the other one gets M3 with snipers and couple of cons. The one that spams cons gets a zis and the techs for a fast T34. The other one goes for SU85`s.

Place cheap 30 munition mines everywhere. One of you get shocks and KV8 Flame, the other one gets guards and artillery. If you do this you will be very hard to beat.

Watch some replays of good players and learn before you blame balance.

Sounds like you are doing it all wrong. Soviets are actually very strong in 2v2. One of you should spam cons, the other one gets M3 with snipers and couple of cons. The one that spams cons gets a zis and the techs for a fast T34. The other one goes for SU85`s.

Place cheap 30 munition mines everywhere. One of you get shocks and KV8 Flame, the other one gets guards and artillery. If you do this you will be very hard to beat.

Watch some replays of good players and learn before you blame balance.

I don't think it's quite that easy and there are some balance issues in 2v2 that give the Soviets a smaller margin for error than the Germans.

That being said it sounds like the OP does have a few things that could be improved.

You don't specify, but it sounds like both players are going for T1 starts? That's probably part of the issue. As Green Devil said, one of you should start T2 so you can build a Zis sooner. I usually get a Maxim, a cons or two and then depending on how the game is going 1-2 ZiS. Also, don't underestimate guards. They rock scout cars (make sure you're in cover) and you can mess up a FHT's day with the button ability.

If one of you started T2, by the time the Ostwind hits you should have several ZiS and probably a T34 already out. Combined with guards that should give you enough to force the Ostwind back. Mines are definitely your friend. Keep placing them through the entire game, even late game.

Unfortunately the Soviets lack a choice of decent counters for most things the Germans can do. I find that means you're locked into certain docs if you want to be competitive. One player pretty much HAS to go for Shocks / KV8. There's simply no other way to fight the wave of grens and pgrens you're going to see in the mid/late game. Same thing for the SU-85. You have to have several of them once the German team hits T3/4. ZiS can be good late game with vet, but they're also easy to take out with arty or infantry. T34's don't cut it against anything above an Ostwind. Once the game reaches that point use them as an infantry deterrent and to finish off wounded/crippled vehicles. T34's are also GREAT at crushing infantry, just be careful you don't over extend with it and get it fausted and killed off. Also, certain docs have the Mark Target ability which is great for taking out Tigers/Elephants/Panthers or vetted P4's especially if your guards can get in a timely button on the same unit.

Having more cons early will help with overall map control so you don't feel the pinch as badly. If you and your team mate are both starting with specialized units like snipers / M3 then you don't have enough capping power. One thing that is different in COH2 from COH is that even regular strat points give you resources. If you lose the main fuel points early, cap as many regular strat points as you can. If you can hold onto more normal points than the other team has in total, you'll still have comparable income.

ISU-152 and IS-2 can be useful but they come very late in the game. Both are better anti-infantry than they are anti-tank. You'll need to really lean on the SU-85's and mines to slow down the late game tank rush.

Don't neglect the upgrades to your cons either. Molotovs and AT nades can help early and late. AT nades are much less effective now against heavy armor, but they do still occasionally work.

Watch some replays of good players and learn before you blame balance.

It's funny, I've been playing this game since vCOH release and I find this advice to be a mixed bag. You can get some general knowledge from watching a replay of two good teams, but in my experience the game almost never plays out with similar scenarios to what an average player sees. You end up watching the replay and saying to yourself "Why doesn't my opening ever play out like that?! The other team NEVER does that!!!" The 'good teams' generally know each other and they don't play the same style that the average players do. That being said, there is still some good stuff to be learned by watching them, just don't expect to see the same type of engagements that you're seeing now at your level.

Seriously, I think Soviets are superior in 2v2. I just won a 2v2 match going t2 only, while my teammate went T1-T4.

It's all about combined arms.

I don't think it's quite that easy and there are some balance issues in 2v2 that give the Soviets a smaller margin for error than the Germans.

That being said it sounds like the OP does have a few things that could be improved.

You don't specify, but it sounds like both players are going for T1 starts? That's probably part of the issue. As Green Devil said, one of you should start T2 so you can build a Zis sooner. I usually get a Maxim, a cons or two and then depending on how the game is going 1-2 ZiS. Also, don't underestimate guards. They rock scout cars (make sure you're in cover) and you can mess up a FHT's day with the button ability.

If one of you started T2, by the time the Ostwind hits you should have several ZiS and probably a T34 already out. Combined with guards that should give you enough to force the Ostwind back. Mines are definitely your friend. Keep placing them through the entire game, even late game.

Unfortunately the Soviets lack a choice of decent counters for most things the Germans can do. I find that means you're locked into certain docs if you want to be competitive. One player pretty much HAS to go for Shocks / KV8. There's simply no other way to fight the wave of grens and pgrens you're going to see in the mid/late game. Same thing for the SU-85. You have to have several of them once the German team hits T3/4. ZiS can be good late game with vet, but they're also easy to take out with arty or infantry. T34's don't cut it against anything above an Ostwind. Once the game reaches that point use them as an infantry deterrent and to finish off wounded/crippled vehicles. T34's are also GREAT at crushing infantry, just be careful you don't over extend with it and get it fausted and killed off. Also, certain docs have the Mark Target ability which is great for taking out Tigers/Elephants/Panthers or vetted P4's especially if your guards can get in a timely button on the same unit.

Having more cons early will help with overall map control so you don't feel the pinch as badly. If you and your team mate are both starting with specialized units like snipers / M3 then you don't have enough capping power. One thing that is different in COH2 from COH is that even regular strat points give you resources. If you lose the main fuel points early, cap as many regular strat points as you can. If you can hold onto more normal points than the other team has in total, you'll still have comparable income.

ISU-152 and IS-2 can be useful but they come very late in the game. Both are better anti-infantry than they are anti-tank. You'll need to really lean on the SU-85's and mines to slow down the late game tank rush.

Don't neglect the upgrades to your cons either. Molotovs and AT nades can help early and late. AT nades are much less effective now against heavy armor, but they do still occasionally work.



It's funny, I've been playing this game since vCOH release and I find this advice to be a mixed bag. You can get some general knowledge from watching a replay of two good teams, but in my experience the game almost never plays out with similar scenarios to what an average player sees. You end up watching the replay and saying to yourself "Why doesn't my opening ever play out like that?! The other team NEVER does that!!!" The 'good teams' generally know each other and they don't play the same style that the average players do. That being said, there is still some good stuff to be learned by watching them, just don't expect to see the same type of engagements that you're seeing now at your level.

I know one thing for sure. There is definitely balance issues in CoH2, but claiming that Soviets are at a disadvantage in 2v2 could not be further from the mark.

I know one thing for sure. There is definitely balance issues in CoH2, but claiming that Soviets are at a disadvantage in 2v2 could not be further from the mark.

Out of curiosity, what's your win/loss ratio with Soviets in 2v2?

I'm not saying that Germans are massively OP. I do believe they have some advantages that make it a slippery uphill climb for Soviets in 2v2. You screw up at all and it's over against a half decent team.

2v2 just go German, as soviet 2v2, if you do not have vast advantage in early game, T3 start will lead your doom......just go double T4 without a thought

Im mostly played 2vs2 with germans and its not that easy at the beginning, with all thats conscripts

Out of curiosity, what's your win/loss ratio with Soviets in 2v2?

I'm not saying that Germans are massively OP. I do believe they have some advantages that make it a slippery uphill climb for Soviets in 2v2. You screw up at all and it's over against a half decent team.

Soviets 2v2 its about .628 currently on a 6 win streak

Germans 2v2 its about .548 currently -2 loss streak

Your statement about, if you screw if it's all over, is true for no matter what faction or mode of game you are playing. But I am telling you 100% that Soviets are not disadvantaged in 2v2.

Soviets have so many options it's not funny, just because conscript spam to T4 SU85's and then snipers is no longer working, doesn't mean that Germans are OP. It means you have to adapt. Use combined arms, Maxims, mortars, Clown Cars, Cons, Snipers, ZiS. Then tech to T34's and SU85's.

A safe option for Soviets in 2v2 is one player spams Cons and the other player makes a few Maxims and Zis AT Guns. Combine and work together and push the German cut offs and the fuels and plant mines. One fast tech to T70 the other waits a little longer and makes T4 and gets SU85's and Snipers.

This isn't hard to do, knowing you will ALWAYS be facing Panzer IV's from Germans as they can not possibly wait until T4 for Panthers as they will be over run before then.