Panic play by Relic imo: "Damn the Assault Grenadiers are way too strong this early in the game what do we do?"
(MOMENT OF CLARITY)
- "I know! Lets make them cost munitions so the flame Half Track is also delayed! Brilliant!"
They kind of forgot, however, that unit callins never cost munitions in the CoH universe. Unit callins cost either manpower (infantry mostly), or manpower + fuel (mostly vehicles). Munitions are, as we all know, used for arty callin or ingame unit abilities like grenades. Having units cost munitions all of a sudden is a huge inconsistency.
Please change this. Make them cost more manpower, add some fuel or have them require more cps. I don't care, just as long as this weird inconsistency is fixed.
Assault Grenadiers costing munitions.
26 Sep 2013, 21:28 PM
#1
Posts: 333
26 Sep 2013, 21:34 PM
#2
Posts: 604
I think the munitions change is a bad idea because Ostheer is already so munitions dependant. People will probably just get another LMG42 instead of calling in Assault Grens/picking that commander.
They could balance that by reducing the cost of their grenades. Those are pretty powerful but 60 munitions when you have already paid 50 to call them in?
Moving them to 1 CP (or rebalancing their performance/MP cost) would probably have been a better idea to be honest.
They could balance that by reducing the cost of their grenades. Those are pretty powerful but 60 munitions when you have already paid 50 to call them in?
Moving them to 1 CP (or rebalancing their performance/MP cost) would probably have been a better idea to be honest.
26 Sep 2013, 21:34 PM
#3
Posts: 5
+1
26 Sep 2013, 21:34 PM
#4
Posts: 2807 | Subs: 6
What else would they do? i see only setting CP from 0 to 1 and that would be probably best solution, muni cost on call-in infantry is kinda weak. But good that at least they've changed something, i was getting bored to face 10 assault grens
26 Sep 2013, 21:38 PM
#5
Posts: 409
They did say it was a temporary stop-gap until they find a better solution for it. Hopefully that means next balance patch, not four months later...
26 Sep 2013, 21:39 PM
#6
Posts: 525
i think its an emergency measure. to me at most they should be 10 munition or 20 so you can still get them early. but you know you are giving something up.
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26 Sep 2013, 21:44 PM
#7
Posts: 333
This is not about balance, and whether 50 munitions is the right price. This is about infantry callins costing munitions being totally inconsistent within the CoH ruleset.
This is coming up with a sloppy solution to a problem that should've already been detected during balance testing.
Barton: I would gladly discuss how to balance Agrens with you but I didn't make this topic because of that. This is about an infantry callin costing munitions which is nonsense in the world of CoH as we know it.
This is coming up with a sloppy solution to a problem that should've already been detected during balance testing.
Barton: I would gladly discuss how to balance Agrens with you but I didn't make this topic because of that. This is about an infantry callin costing munitions which is nonsense in the world of CoH as we know it.
26 Sep 2013, 21:48 PM
#8
Posts: 93
I don't think its a bad change in regards to how it will function, but it is the ONLY official coh unit that will cost munis to purchase. A more organic solution would be to make the units capable of entering the field without mp40's and then upgrading them for 50 munis. This would probably demand a return to a higher manpower cost though.
The nice thing about relic's approach is that it both slows down the initial build, and it does make for a trade-off in resources that will hurt the early pgren with shrek support, and equally slow down the upgraded scout car as well, giving an m3 some breathing room.
Assuming you still get a reasonable bang for your buck in terms of early game dominance, these units might still translate into having MORE munitions and resources in your pocket early, at least partially offsetting the cost. This new cost might curtail that dominance quite a bit though. Maybe the manpower should be returned to some degree, and the munitions cost dropped to 30 or so.
The nice thing about relic's approach is that it both slows down the initial build, and it does make for a trade-off in resources that will hurt the early pgren with shrek support, and equally slow down the upgraded scout car as well, giving an m3 some breathing room.
Assuming you still get a reasonable bang for your buck in terms of early game dominance, these units might still translate into having MORE munitions and resources in your pocket early, at least partially offsetting the cost. This new cost might curtail that dominance quite a bit though. Maybe the manpower should be returned to some degree, and the munitions cost dropped to 30 or so.
26 Sep 2013, 22:02 PM
#9
Posts: 525
lvl 0 call ins is also not vcoh.
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26 Sep 2013, 22:10 PM
#10
Posts: 333
lvl 0 call ins is also not vcoh.
True, but having them doesn't "break" any rules; it just adds. Having infantry callins cost manpower and munitions breaks the rule of what munitions are used for in CoH. It's a very ugly solution to a problem.
26 Sep 2013, 22:17 PM
#11
Posts: 2561
True, but having them doesn't "break" any rules; it just adds. Having infantry callins cost manpower and munitions breaks the rule of what munitions are used for in CoH. It's a very ugly solution to a problem.
I think increasing the cooldown of the call-in could work. This seems to be more of a panic move by relic since we know that the balance team didn't have it for long.
26 Sep 2013, 22:17 PM
#12
![avatar of =][=mmortal](/uploads/avatar/6497.jpg?updated=1372535109)
Posts: 215
the only reason I was getting this unit was to throw out an early squad to contest fuel points that normally get the first conscript squad while the first gren is building. With a mun cost, this doctrine just lost a lot of interest to me. I never made more than 1-2 AGs for a balanced army anyway. If someone is spamming them then they are terrible and deserve to be ran over by t70s
26 Sep 2013, 22:24 PM
#13
Posts: 2561
the only reason I was getting this unit was to throw out an early squad to contest fuel points that normally get the first conscript squad while the first gren is building. With a mun cost, this doctrine just lost a lot of interest to me. I never made more than 1-2 AGs for a balanced army anyway. If someone is spamming them then they are terrible and deserve to be ran over by t70s
The problem with them before was that no one could even get to T3 or barely T1 for that matter. You could easily build 3 of them right off the bat, push the soviets completely off the field, skip T1, and get out a scout car before your opponent could build a M3 to counter them.
Note that since they were call-ins they could be sent in as soon as the game started, before even the first conscript hit the field.
27 Sep 2013, 06:10 AM
#14
Posts: 747
They should've just raised the cp requirement from 0 to 1
27 Sep 2013, 06:16 AM
#15
Posts: 896
the only reason I was getting this unit was to throw out an early squad to contest fuel points that normally get the first conscript squad while the first gren is building. With a mun cost, this doctrine just lost a lot of interest to me. I never made more than 1-2 AGs for a balanced army anyway. If someone is spamming them then they are terrible and deserve to be ran over by t70s
Yes this is how they were most effective, and now they are not for t2 start. For a quick fix they should have increased their cost a little and increased the call-in cool down significantly.
Note that since they were call-ins they could be sent in as soon as the game started, before even the first conscript hit the field.
A small increase in cost could have helped in delaying them.
27 Sep 2013, 06:41 AM
#16
Posts: 409
Having assault grenadiers costing munitions delays the armored car upgun which will in turn make the assault grenadiers vulnerable to M3 flame cars.
Essentially, in a 1v1 setting, you're building the unit to help counter itself. Pretty stupid if you ask me.
There's really no significant benefit to building assault grenadiers if I can just build panzergrenadiers that cost no (precious) ammo and or upgrade my regular grenadiers with LMG42 for only 10 munitions more, both of which melt infantry faster.
Plus, why go assault grenadiers doctrine when I can go osttruppen for early game capping dominance. It really doesn't make much sense.
Essentially, in a 1v1 setting, you're building the unit to help counter itself. Pretty stupid if you ask me.
There's really no significant benefit to building assault grenadiers if I can just build panzergrenadiers that cost no (precious) ammo and or upgrade my regular grenadiers with LMG42 for only 10 munitions more, both of which melt infantry faster.
Plus, why go assault grenadiers doctrine when I can go osttruppen for early game capping dominance. It really doesn't make much sense.
27 Sep 2013, 06:43 AM
#17
Posts: 952 | Subs: 1
In CoH1 call in units, as a rule, were manpower-only. Still, current fuel-costing call-in vehicle units are working out fine.
IMO as long as the munition cost change balances the game, it's fine- inelegant and inconsistent though it may be.
Here's my alternative cost change though- I'd keep the cost for the AGren squad the same, or very similar- but increase pop cost, reinforce cost and reinforce time very significantly- say 12pop per squad, 40-45mp per man. That way if the german player doesn't sink muni into the healing bunker very early he'll be stuck with very significant manpower drain throughout the game.
IMO as long as the munition cost change balances the game, it's fine- inelegant and inconsistent though it may be.
Here's my alternative cost change though- I'd keep the cost for the AGren squad the same, or very similar- but increase pop cost, reinforce cost and reinforce time very significantly- say 12pop per squad, 40-45mp per man. That way if the german player doesn't sink muni into the healing bunker very early he'll be stuck with very significant manpower drain throughout the game.
27 Sep 2013, 06:58 AM
#18
Posts: 409
Here's my alternative cost change though- I'd keep the cost for the AGren squad the same, or very similar- but increase pop cost, reinforce cost and reinforce time very significantly- say 12pop per squad, 40-45mp per man. That way if the german player doesn't sink muni into the healing bunker very early he'll be stuck with very significant manpower drain throughout the game.
No. Soviet 2-man snipers would be trolling you all day.
27 Sep 2013, 07:01 AM
#19
4 
Posts: 813 | Subs: 1
Also fine with it costing muni for now. Makes the unit less spamable, and more of a complement.
27 Sep 2013, 07:13 AM
#20
Posts: 952 | Subs: 1
No. Soviet 2-man snipers would be trolling you all day.
That's the point of it- you can't rely on AGrens only once the Soviet player starts transitioning out of Conscripts, or you'll be in trouble mid-late game- or you could exploit the synergy of the doctrine with T1 skipping and go 3X AGrens -> Scout Cars to counter the sniper.
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