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Assault Grenadiers costing munitions.

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JohanSchwarz
27 Sep 2013, 07:18 AM
#21
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2013, 07:13 AMStrummingbird


That's the point of it- you can't rely on AGrens only once the Soviet player starts transitioning out of Conscripts, or you'll be in trouble mid-late game- or you could exploit the synergy of the doctrine with T1 skipping and go 3X AGrens -> Scout Cars to counter the sniper.


What's the point of making 3 units that will be literally useless once early game is over because of the implied cost when they enter combat? They're CQB units, so they will end up losing squad members and that will hit your economy hard. It's not like they're as effective as Shock Troops so why would they cost the same to reinforce?

I'm assuming the three AGrens won't win you the game alone (and if they do, that's not balanced whatsoever), in which case they will simply be a huge liability as the game goes on. I'd rather just get regular grenadiers and go for PGrens as a shock unit - at least they can scale into the late game as AT.
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sir muffin
27 Sep 2013, 07:21 AM
#22
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Posts: 531

hahah, flame half track is a joke and so are arsegrens

thank god you can't use both/either
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Stoffa
27 Sep 2013, 11:33 AM
#23
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Posts: 333

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2013, 07:21 AMsir muffin
hahah, flame half track is a joke and so are arsegrens

thank god you can't use both/either


Not sure what u are trying to say here.

Anyway, just bumping this thread to ensure Relic sees it. Infantry callins costing munitions is just wrong.
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SgtBulldog
27 Sep 2013, 11:43 AM
#24
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Posts: 688

They should have increased the time for getting an AG instead.

Making plain infantry cost ammo is just not right.
'There's honour in victory, honour in defeat and honour in just staying alive'.
[Quote from Wings Reel]
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Stoffa
27 Sep 2013, 12:05 PM
#25
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Posts: 333

Exactly Bulldog. There are so many ways thinkable to nerf the AG's so they fit into the game nicely.

They went with the most ugly solution possible.

You can:
- Nerf the unit itself
- Up the cp's needed
- Make it cost fuel
- Make it cost more MP
- Have the machinegun be an upgrade requiring munitions

Just some things out of my head in 5 seconds, I'm sure more is possible. Why they went with this solution is beyond me.
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AvNY
27 Sep 2013, 12:24 PM
#26
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Posts: 862

Why all the hoopla about call-ins costing munis? Of course they can do this if it works. There is absolutely no reason they shouldn't or can't.

For one thing there has always been a muni call-in/manpower relationship; manpower blitz in vCOH. Pay munitions, get MP.
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Umbert
27 Sep 2013, 12:31 PM
#27
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2013, 12:05 PMStoffa
Exactly Bulldog. There are so many ways thinkable to nerf the AG's so they fit into the game nicely.

They went with the most ugly solution possible.

You can:
- Nerf the unit itself
- Up the cp's needed
- Make it cost fuel
- Make it cost more MP
- Have the machinegun be an upgrade requiring munitions

Just some things out of my head in 5 seconds, I'm sure more is possible. Why they went with this solution is beyond me.


Yes a combination would the the most satisfying solution. 1CP, cheap MP only call in cost and 60 munitions to upgrade them with MP40s. That would give them the Volksgrenadier feeling they were aiming for (I think).
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Blovski
27 Sep 2013, 12:37 PM
#28
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Posts: 480

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2013, 21:34 PMBartonPL
What else would they do? i see only setting CP from 0 to 1 and that would be probably best solution, muni cost on call-in infantry is kinda weak. But good that at least they've changed something, i was getting bored to face 10 assault grens


Barton is right.
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MorgolKing
27 Sep 2013, 13:06 PM
#29
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Posts: 148

I disagree. The AGs no longer really fit into the Ostheer model anymore. They should have increased the CP to 2 instead of 1 and simply made them stronger and cost nearly 500mp as Stormtroopers. Then they could be useful in T1-T3 strategies.

Instead they were useful in skipping T1 until they cost munies. CoH1 had the format down perfect, why not rinse and repeat? Disappointing.

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2013, 12:37 PMBlovski


Barton is right.
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Stoffa
27 Sep 2013, 13:07 PM
#30
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Posts: 333

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2013, 12:24 PMAvNY
Why all the hoopla about call-ins costing munis? Of course they can do this if it works. There is absolutely no reason they shouldn't or can't.

For one thing there has always been a muni call-in/manpower relationship; manpower blitz in vCOH. Pay munitions, get MP.



Wow your comparison is just really really bad. Manpower blitz is an ability, abilities always cost munitions in CoH. This is about an infantry callin costing munitions, which is terribly inconsistent.

Blovski Barton is right in a sense that a change was needed. This thread, however, is not about how to balance AG's. It is about them costing munitions and how that doesnt make sense.
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Umbert
27 Sep 2013, 13:15 PM
#31
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Posts: 119

Then maybe rework the whole infantry call-in model depnding on the usefulness of their weaponry? Like the Shocktroops PPsH and the Guards AT rifles? Lower their MP cost and add a Munitions cost? That could surely be interesting.
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Stoffa
27 Sep 2013, 13:17 PM
#32
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Posts: 333

Meh it's far easier to simply give the AG's a crap gun, and make the machinegun an upgrade costing munitions. Reworking the whole model used by CoH seems over the top.
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MorgolKing
27 Sep 2013, 13:18 PM
#33
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Posts: 148

This whole fix is just out of whack. The AGs are no longer worth it. Why skip Grens for them at this point? Why skip PGs for them at this point?

If everyone was having such a hard time with them, simply make them cost a lot of MP, CP2 and buff them accordingly to be Stormtroopers.

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2013, 13:06 PMMorgolKing
I disagree. The AGs no longer really fit into the Ostheer model anymore. They should have increased the CP to 2 instead of 1 and simply made them stronger and cost nearly 500mp as Stormtroopers. Then they could be useful in T1-T3 strategies.

Instead they were useful in skipping T1 until they cost munies. CoH1 had the format down perfect, why not rinse and repeat? Disappointing.

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Umbert
27 Sep 2013, 13:30 PM
#34
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2013, 13:17 PMStoffa
Meh it's far easier to simply give the AG's a crap gun, and make the machinegun an upgrade costing munitions. Reworking the whole model used by CoH seems over the top.


As for now it would only affect the the Shock troops and the Guards. The Germans only call in would be the Field officer and the Osttruppen as Relief Forces. But you have to look in the upcoming future. What new units will be available as infantry call-ins. Maybe dedicated Panzerschreck-troops for the Germans. Just saying, that after the Heavy tank adjustment, where the MP cost went up, it would be nice to save som MP on the infantry and pay with munitions instead.

But yes in the beginning you got cheaper Shocks without submachineguns and payed for them afterwards. now it it is one MP package. By this logic the AGs should also come equiped WITH their submachineguns at a high cost at 1CP...
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Blovski
27 Sep 2013, 13:31 PM
#35
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Posts: 480

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2013, 13:07 PMStoffa



Wow your comparison is just really really bad. Manpower blitz is an ability, abilities always cost munitions in CoH. This is about an infantry callin costing munitions, which is terribly inconsistent.

Blovski Barton is right in a sense that a change was needed. This thread, however, is not about how to balance AG's. It is about them costing munitions and how that doesnt make sense.


I agree that costing munis does clash with the established systems of the series for call-in units. (ofc, in COH-1, call-in units didn't require fuel either). 0 CP commander abilities are actually a far weirder clash than that (and I think the root of a lot of the balance problems with these Ostheer commanders)... ho hum.

Of the other solutions

- Fuel cost is both weird for infantry and would put back teching
- Increased MP cost would have no effect on speed of arrival and make them too expensive for their power level later in the game.
- Nerf is largely un-needed. They just had to come out later.

I agree with Barton that making them cost 1CP is the best solution but if keeping them at 0CP is important to the designers' conception of the commander, the muni cost, either front or back-loaded, is the only real solution.
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=][=mmortal
27 Sep 2013, 13:38 PM
#36
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Posts: 215

do not require AGs to buy the mp40 upgrade that gives them their purpose. You may as well make guards purchase their AT rifles at that point.

Better solutions would be significantly increase the call-in cooldown time, possibly removing the penalty once the 1st cp hits. You call in your first unit at 2 seconds into the game, and then you are hitting like a 2 min recharge time until cp1 removes it back to the current default. AG's will be a combined arms multiplier rather than replace to grens.

I'm leaning towards not increasing the cost or cp's required to 1, since the issue seems to be the speed at which the unit comes out, not its effectiveness in combat. It's effective in combat BECAUSE it rushes t0. I think its a good change to counter-balance, albiet with a single doctrine sadly, the initial utility that soviet players get by building cons from their HQ at the start of a game. AG's still suffer from lack of a molotov, oorah, weapon upgrades, faust, and a pricey grenade ability that I still say "meh" to.
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Umbert
27 Sep 2013, 13:39 PM
#37
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Posts: 119

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2013, 13:31 PMBlovski

I agree with Barton that making them cost 1CP is the best solution but if keeping them at 0CP is important to the designers' conception of the commander, the muni cost, either front or back-loaded, is the only real solution.


Then the 60 munitions (as everything costs 60 in the Ostheer) afterwards for the MP40s seems adequate.

Then you can have T0 5 men squads with rifles to basically mirror match the russian early game.

edit:
And yes, good point Immortal, the call-in cool-down should not be faster than the build time for conscripts...
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JohanSchwarz
27 Sep 2013, 14:43 PM
#38
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Posts: 409

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2013, 13:39 PMUmbert


Then the 60 munitions (as everything costs 60 in the Ostheer) afterwards for the MP40s seems adequate.

Then you can have T0 5 men squads with rifles to basically mirror match the russian early game.


That would create a lot of redundancy between a regular grenadier and these guys - what would be the point. You might as well as make the regular grenadier a 280mp 5-man squad at that point and give them an option to upgrade MP40s.
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c r u C e
27 Sep 2013, 14:54 PM
#39
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Posts: 525

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2013, 14:43 PMJohanSchwarz


That would create a lot of redundancy between a regular grenadier and these guys - what would be the point. You might as well as make the regular grenadier a 280mp 5-man squad at that point and give them an option to upgrade MP40s.

Grenadiers are good units even in a 4 man format and they are specialized in long range,why give them MP40?
Also doesn't MP40+LMG sound a little OP?
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Umbert
27 Sep 2013, 15:00 PM
#40
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Posts: 119

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2013, 14:43 PMJohanSchwarz


That would create a lot of redundancy between a regular grenadier and these guys - what would be the point. You might as well as make the regular grenadier a 280mp 5-man squad at that point and give them an option to upgrade MP40s.


You would have fighting units whilst skipping T1.
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