How would you like the JLI to be nerfed?

Two ways I can see it (the specifics may be hammered out, ofc, but the main points being to align their cost and performance by either 1) increasing cost or 2) decreasing performance.)

1) Make them cost 320-360 MP and increase Muni cost for the G43 by an additional 15-20. Keep the rest of the stats the same, so they are still a super strong squad but cannot be spammed and must be used with more care. Also makes reinforcing them more expensive so you can't just leave the squad to tank hits without any consequence.

2) Reduce their accuracy and garrison/cover accuracy such that they aren't basically guaranteed to always hit, drop the sniping crit to 55% (still better than Pathfinders), and drop their near-range accuracy so they really suffer when a squad gets up close to them. Put cost to 280.

I am not a fan of making squads weaker, so I naturally prefer option 1. The problem isn't that the squad is strong, the problem is that it can be spammed to hell. Keeping them strong but making them a tactical unit for sight or to add model drops to other units is a good call, and if the nerf makes them unused like before then I think that's a fail state.

Alternative:

Make them like the 5 man squad you can only have one of.

The above may have some details here and there that don't align with le "Perfect Balance"(tm) but I think you can still understand what the intent is.

why should they?

Right now it's easy to spawn them near cutoffs and team weapons. Messes up critical early game and engagements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC46PDepyUA

I think this replays shows that people exaggerate how powerful the JLI really are as long as they are not in a massive blob. Von's 1-2 squads trade well but are forced off frequently and are not winning the game for him by any means. When there are just 1-2 JLI squads operating seperately they are not that hard to deal with.


Which leads me to believe that for now their combat performance is fine and that they just need a small cost increase alongside a cooldown increase to make them trade a bit less and prevent them from being spammed in blobs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC46PDepyUA

I think this replays shows that people exaggerate how powerful the JLI really are as long as they are not in a massive blob. Von's 1-2 squads trade well but are forced off frequently and are not winning the game for him by any means. When there are just 1-2 JLI squads operating seperately they are not that hard to deal with.


Which leads me to believe that for now their combat performance is fine and that they just need a small cost increase alongside a cooldown increase to make them trade a bit less and prevent them from being spammed in blobs.

That's a 60 minute video. Looking at the unit composition, it's up against an Assault Engineer and .50 cal composition which later deploys the Bulldozer: literally a doctrinal counter build.

JLI as is beat the crap out of dual BAR Riflemen in a range 20 green cover fight and have the upper hand against LMG Paratroopers under the same conditions. They're completely off the curve.

I would say the obvious option of a price increase combined with a slight increase in upgrade cost and keep at CP1. Say 280-300 MP and 60 Munis? If that's not enough I would say tone down their Sniper bonus against yellow and heavy cover - I think a lot of spamming potential comes from the fact that the G43 essentially ignores cover and when you combine that with the high Critical threshold things get silly fast.

Increasing to 2 CP is the wrong way to go about it because then you are just back to spamming Volks because they take too long to unlock where the higher MP and Muni cost limits their early game spamability potential similar to the way 1 CP would.

i cant imagine how dumb u must be to think it would be ok to nerf masive their performanche AND increase the cost to 360mp. It would be trash volks for a price fro guards which have obers AI and really god AT, nades, armor slow and so one..

ahh you mean like what they done to the maxim?

I would say the obvious option of a price increase combined with a slight increase in upgrade cost and keep at CP1. Say 280-300 MP and 60 Munis? If that's not enough I would say tone down their Sniper bonus against yellow and heavy cover - I think a lot of spamming potential comes from the fact that the G43 essentially ignores cover and when you combine that with the high Critical threshold things get silly fast.

Increasing to 2 CP is the wrong way to go about it because then you are just back to spamming Volks because they take too long to unlock where the higher MP and Muni cost limits their early game spamability potential similar to the way 1 CP would.

A price hike's not going to do it: a CP1 cover-negating frontline combat squad is going to be a problem unless you hike it into irrelevance.

The balance team needs to decide if this is a support squad or a combat squad.

If it's a support squad, it needs to be pretty trashy when by itself.

If it's a combat squad, it needs to lose its anti-cover buffs.

Otherwise picking Overwatch or Scavenge means cover isn't a thing for your opponent and the game's going to degrade into CQC and MG spam.

That's a 60 minute video. Looking at the unit composition, it's up against an Assault Engineer and .50 cal composition which later deploys the Bulldozer: literally a doctrinal counter build.

JLI as is beat the crap out of dual BAR Riflemen in a range 20 green cover fight and have the upper hand against LMG Paratroopers under the same conditions. They're completely off the curve.

To me this does not sound any different from Ostheer having to go Mobile Defense to get the Puma counter to the T-70. Some great units just require specific counters. It doesn't sound much different from snipers either. Picking 20 range cover fights against JLI is literally the worst way to go up against them. And it would matter much less if there are only 1-2 JLI squads going up against the usual 3 Riflemen with LT and/or Captain with light vehicle or HMG support.


I think the JLI problem is blown way out of proportions and that they will be much more balanced when they can't be spammed anymore. It's definitely dangerous to overnerf them at this point because you'd risk them ending up never being used again. They need to be good to have a place between the cost effective Volks and the god tier Obers AI specialist.

A price hike's not going to do it: a CP1 cover-negating frontline combat squad is going to be a problem unless you hike it into irrelevance.

The balance team needs to decide if this is a support squad or a combat squad.

If it's a support squad, it needs to be pretty trashy when by itself.

If it's a combat squad, it needs to lose its anti-cover buffs.

Otherwise picking Overwatch or Scavenge means cover isn't a thing for your opponent and the game's going to degrade into CQC and MG spam.

Which is why I said that looking at reducing their G43 cover bonus should also be considered. My point is that I would much rather see them still be accessible but less good than be insanely good but too hard to fit into your build order due to cost or timing. (There is a reason almost all elite units have seen their cost reduced at some point)

JLI by itself will always be vulnerable to CQC and lack of snares - that will never change so it'll always be "trashy by itself" to some degree.

JLI by itself will always be vulnerable to CQC and lack of snares - that will never change so it'll always be "trashy by itself" to some degree.

Not at CP1.

The design of the unit is the fundamental problem. They either need to have very low damage without another unit setting up their crits, or they need to be subject to the cover mechanics.

Not at CP1.

The design of the unit is the fundamental problem. They either need to have very low damage without another unit setting up their crits, or they need to be subject to the cover mechanics.

But those things arent even really a factor at 1 cp, because youre probably not getting g43s until 2 cp (or just before) anyway.

To me this does not sound any different from Ostheer having to go Mobile Defense to get the Puma counter to the T-70. Some great units just require specific counters. It doesn't sound much different from snipers either. Picking 20 range cover fights against JLI is literally the worst way to go up against them. And it would matter much less if there are only 1-2 JLI squads going up against the usual 3 Riflemen with LT and/or Captain with light vehicle or HMG support.

I think the JLI problem is blown way out of proportions and that they will be much more balanced when they can't be spammed anymore. It's definitely dangerous to overnerf them at this point because you'd risk them ending up never being used again. They need to be good to have a place between the cost effective Volks and the god tier Obers AI specialist.

You don't have to go Mobile Defence Puma to counter a T-70. You never did. Ost has plenty of solid AT tools and panzerfausts on their mainline infantry from the start.

If the Puma were mandatory, it wouldn't have disappeared after being tied to tech.

Some great units just require specific counters. It doesn't sound much different from snipers either.

Snipers cost about 360 manpower and get wiped if you pull off a light vehicle dive against them. JLI just bleed a little.

Picking 20 range cover fights against JLI is literally the worst way to go up against them.

LMG Paratroopers are a 380 manpower, 120 munition, CP3 unit specialized for long range combat. JLI are currently fighting on their level in cover.

And it would matter much less if there are only 1-2 JLI squads going up against the usual 3 Riflemen with LT and/or Captain with light vehicle or HMG support.

Unless they're hard limited they'll still get spammed.

I think the JLI problem is blown way out of proportions and that they will be much more balanced when they can't be spammed anymore. It's definitely dangerous to overnerf them at this point because you'd risk them ending up never being used again.

JLI being nerfed out of the game is frankly better than them continuing in their current design form. An infantry unit that negates cover has to be balanced VERY carefully. The new JLI were not.

Balance aside, JLI in their current form are an Advanced Emplacements level design fuckup. CP1 long-range cover negation does not make a game based around maneuver and positioning fun. It makes it a blobfest.

i cant imagine how dumb u must be to think it would be ok to nerf masive their performanche AND increase the cost to 360mp. It would be trash volks for a price fro guards which have obers AI and really god AT, nades, armor slow and so one..

It worked for guards and shocks in the past, I can't see how it wouldn't work for JLI.

300 MP, 2 CP, remove first strike bonus. Then remove Lefh and make Goliath a seperate commander abiliity again.

i like this.

guard and shocks at 1CP did not work out well. Not sure why people thought a great infantry unit that is powerful enough to replace volks would be good at 1CP. You lose a volk, it makes sense to replace with a Jaeger. You lose a rifle squad, you will not replace it with Pathfinders.

Pathfinders are good at 1CP because they are only call in unit that actually suck at fighting but make up in other ways.

guard and shocks at 1CP did not work out well. Not sure why people thought a great infantry unit that is powerful enough to replace volks would be good at 1CP. You lose a volk, it makes sense to replace with a Jaeger. You lose a rifle squad, you will not replace it with Pathfinders.

Pathfinders are good at 1CP because they are only call in unit that actually suck at fighting but make up in other ways.

No one will replace volk with a JLI, JLI has no grenade or tank snare.

Without G43, JLI has similar combat performance as Pathfinder.


So I think increasing its MP cost and G43 upgrade cost is enough. There is no need to change its CP requirements or its stats.

on a side note... grenades would be redundant for JLI... they get a 0.9 vs cover acc which serves as anti garrison...

Without G43, JLI has similar combat performance as Pathfinder

Which is a 290 MP squad with two mini-sniper rifles.

If they performed like Pathfinders they'd be fine.

JLI has infiltration nades in scavenge. Nades and sprint = strong combo.

Which is a 290 MP squad with two mini-sniper rifles.

If they performed like Pathfinders they'd be fine.

NO! They need to be cheaper and better!