Feelings after the Decemberpatch

move assualt engineer to cp1, ok

then replace okw starting unit from strumpio to volk

+

Let's not compare 1 stat and draw conclusions from there, shall we?

Sturmioneers
- 300MP
- DPM is 64/28,8/3,8 at ranges 3/15/28
- lose 25% of their DPM if one model drops on approach
- No default weapon upgrade
- 0,87 target size
- goes up against high close range DPM Riflemen
- have bad combat veterancy at very high requirements

Assault Engineers
- 280MP
- DPM is 67/7/0,8 at ranges 10/18/30
- lose 20% of their DPM if one model drops on approach
- default flamethrower upgrade
- 0,9 target size
- goes up against low close range DPM Volksgrenadiers
- have quite good combat veterancy at reasonable requirements



TLDR Assault Engineers are better than Sturmpioneers while being cheaper. Their early game performance should be toned down a bit. They are performing at about 110-120% efficiency for their cost/role. Giving them 1,0 target size at vet0 (0,9 at vet1) and locking flamethrower behind tech should put them closer to 100% efficiency for vanilla performance.

STRUMPIO IS FREE STARTING UNIT

AND ASSULT ENGINEERS IS NOT FREE COMMANDER ONLY UNIT

IF NERF TARGET SIZE, THEY ARE JUST TRASH

Pathfinders are UP.

Pathfinders
290mp to call-in
Target size 1 (.71 at vet 3)
dmg at range 5/10/15/20/25/30/35 with 2xm1a1+2xM1 scouped, not includ 40% critical.
22.468/17.018/13.806/11.734/10.722/11.158/11.592
M1 scouped is prior to bars, meaning that they pick M1 scoped rather than BARs when losing models. In fact, it's a good way to waste munis to arm they with double BARs.

JLI
250mp to call-in, can be deploy from buildings
Target size .8 (.57 at vet 3)
dmg at range 5/10/15/20/25/30/35 with 3xkar98+1xG43 scouped, not includ 75% critical and ambush bouns.
17.607/15.634/14.108/12.874/11.866/10.623/9.383
+50% accruacy ambush bouns for 5 sec
G43 scouped have .9 accuracy against cover and garrison
...

No Pathfinder are not UP and your comparison is incomplete and simply flawed.

Pathfinders are a CP 0 unit that spawn with 2 elite carbines.

JLI are OP but are a CP 1 unit that come with 4 mainline infantry weapons, their Sniper rifle is gated behind tech. By the time JLI have access to their g43 Pathfinder can easily have access to BARS.

Finally claiming a unit is UP because it compares bad to an OP units is flawed to begin with.

I voted fine for everything apart from JLI and 221/223. I think JLI need a small nerf.(increase received accuracy or manpower cost?) The 223 is perfectly fine, but the 221 needs a small buff IMO.(slighlty more armor?)

I was debating with my vote for KV8. Maybe it should get a small lethality nerf to give the player a bit more time to react. The 251 flamer was nerfed vs garrisons for the same reason

Let's not compare 1 stat and draw conclusions from there, shall we?

Sturmioneers
- 300MP
- DPM is 64/28,8/3,8 at ranges 3/15/28
- lose 25% of their DPM if one model drops on approach
- No default weapon upgrade
- 0,87 target size
- goes up against high close range DPM Riflemen
- have bad combat veterancy at very high requirements

Assault Engineers
- 280MP
- DPM is 67/7/0,8 at ranges 10/18/30
- lose 20% of their DPM if one model drops on approach
- default flamethrower upgrade
- 0,9 target size
- goes up against low close range DPM Volksgrenadiers
- have quite good combat veterancy at reasonable requirements



TLDR Assault Engineers are better than Sturmpioneers while being cheaper. Their early game performance should be toned down a bit. They are performing at about 110-120% efficiency for their cost/role. Giving them 1,0 target size at vet0 (0,9 at vet1) and locking flamethrower behind tech should put them closer to 100% efficiency for vanilla performance.

Even better compare assault engineers with assault grenadiers when both are doctrinal, come at CP 0 and cost the same, while AE come with tonne of utility.

STRUMPIO IS FREE STARTING UNIT

AND ASSULT ENGINEERS IS NOT FREE COMMANDER ONLY UNIT

IF NERF TARGET SIZE, THEY ARE JUST TRASH

You can type in caps all you want, it doesn't make your argument any less bad.


1,0 target size would simply mean they would have more trouble charging straight into Grens/Volks and winning. It would require them to use sight blockers to close in or set up ambushes, just like Sturmpioneers do because of their lower squad size.

But I'm gonna end this conversation here as you are clearly unable to have a neutral discussion about the unit.

Even better compare assault engineers with assault grenadiers when both are doctrinal, come at CP 0 and cost the same, while AE come with tonne of utility.

Also very true, although I think that's mainly because Assault Grenadiers simply haven't been looked at for a very long time and have become very underpowered with all the other units around them being buffed.

Finally claiming a unit is UP because it compares bad to an OP units is flawed to begin with.

Compared with Grens, 290mp pathfinders are not better. Pathfinders are slightly UP. They need some slightly buff.

And about BARs, it's not a good idea to arm them with BARs first. They would pick M1D instead of BARs when losing model.
EDIT: And bars functions like a smg rather than a lmg. It's really a waste to arm a units that supposed to fight at long range with CQB weapons.

You can type in caps all you want, it doesn't make your argument any less bad.


1,0 target size would simply mean they would have more trouble charging straight into Grens/Volks and winning. It would require them to use sight blockers to close in or set up ambushes, just like Sturmpioneers do because of their lower squad size.

But I'm gonna end this conversation here as you are clearly unable to have a neutral discussion about the unit.



Also very true, although I think that's mainly because Assault Grenadiers simply haven't been looked at for a very long time and have become very underpowered with all the other units around them being buffed.

1.0 target size CQB unit....who use it?

assault engineer reinforce cost is 28mp, not cheap

Thats why nobody use assualt grenadier

Pathfinders are UP.

Pathfinders
290mp to call-in
Target size 1 (.71 at vet 3)
dmg at range 5/10/15/20/25/30/35 with 2xm1a1+2xM1 scouped, not includ 40% critical.
22.468/17.018/13.806/11.734/10.722/11.158/11.592
M1 scouped is prior to bars, meaning that they pick M1 scoped rather than BARs when losing models. In fact, it's a good way to waste munis to arm they with double BARs.

JLI
250mp to call-in, can be deploy from buildings
Target size .8 (.57 at vet 3)
dmg at range 5/10/15/20/25/30/35 with 3xkar98+1xG43 scouped, not includ 75% critical and ambush bouns.
17.607/15.634/14.108/12.874/11.866/10.623/9.383
+50% accruacy ambush bouns for 5 sec
G43 scouped have .9 accuracy against cover and garrison

Volks
250mp to build
Target size 1(.77 at vet 3)
dmg at range 5/10/15/20/25/30/35 with 5xkar98
20.035/17.3/15.19/13.51/12.14/10.395/9.035

Grens
240mp to build
Target size .9(,70 at vet 3)
dmg at range 5/10/15/20/25/30/35 with 4xkar98
20.296/17.496/15.294/13.488/12.004/10.392/9.052

Coclusion:
As a long-range combat units, pathfinders deal even less dmg than Grens in 10~25, with higher target size, and much costy.

Idea:
Giving pathfinders "mark inf" ability the same as storm officers to make them a long-range support units and different from JLI.
Pathfinders
270mp to call-in
getting acess to "mark inf" after any officer unlocked.
M1D have .75 accuracy against cover and garrison.

Hey,

When I look at your numbers, I can't see that pathfinder are worser than grens. You think they are UP?
I agree pathfinder spam vs okw JLI is not gonna work. BUT when you play vs wehrmacht, they are very good.
Reason:
- Cloak in cover ( vs sniper)
- Giving long LoS ( spot mg42)
- Don't underestimate the crits "headshots" from them.
- They earn very fast vet imo
- Don't forget to build this thing with them. You can build 3 of them and they are useful.

I personal think the problem is: vs OKW they are UP - fine; but vs Wehrmacht they are fine - OP.

I was debating with my vote for KV8. Maybe it should get a small lethality nerf to give the player a bit more time to react. The 251 flamer was nerfed vs garrisons for the same reason

Yeah kv8 is very tricky.

In teamgames its brutal. You kill every pak / raketen atm

A) nerf the damage of the fire
or
B) reverse the rangebuff

Hey,

When I look at your numbers, I can't see that pathfinder are worser than grens. You think they are UP?

I mean they are slightly UP by price. 290mp is a little bit high.
40% critical only save 1 more shot to kill a model.
And 270mp is referred to 290 for JLI(as JLI could be deployed from buildings and with 0.8RA)

Yeah kv8 is very tricky.

In teamgames its brutal. You kill every pak / raketen atm

A) nerf the damage of the fire
or
B) reverse the rangebuff

I think the timing is the main issue. It comes very early.

IMO the biggest problem is that KV-8 is cheap enough that it can be rushed when Axis are still far away from their TDs and only have infantry based AT/ATG. Which is fine for normal premium tanks but not a juggernaut flamethrower that can roast multiple ATGs or AT squads head-on.

My solution would be to reduce the shock impact of the unit by either:
1. Increase the price / CP, so it comes a bit later and the Axis will have more time to save for their expensive counters (JP4 and Panther). IMO price from 145 to ~180 should give Axis just enough breathing room to deal with it.
2. Move some of its current stock performance to veterancy so a vet0 KV-8 isn't as devastating. If Axis recognize the threat they will be able to produce counters without being wiped off the map instantly, and if they don't they will eventually get overwelmed by its veteran performance.


I prefer option 1 as it's much easier to do.

I mean they are slightly UP by price. 290mp is a little bit high.
40% critical only save 1 more shot to kill a model.
And 270mp is referred to 290 for JLI(as JLI could be deployed from buildings and with 0.8RA)

Errr, before the patch was out I test JLI and knew they were going too be op (not to the extent they are through) comparing them to pathfinders, so threads popping up about JLI is no shocker to me.

I also voted they are up comparing them to IR paths. Regular paths in my opinion just lack utility and their cost is too high. Ir paths fit perfectly being 250mp and with a barrage ability, the only problem is they are both in very heavy munition commanders (even more for airborne with the muni attached to drops). Ra could be a tad lower but thats it.

The Valentine I have played a little but kind off ignore it after a while, I think it might have something to do with its underwhelming vet maybe? Like improve its accuracy <-(preferred) or damage just something a little more offensive than just becoming a miniature punching bag.

Sturmtiger is the weirdest one out of everything to me. Main problem is hitting damaged terrain (maybe a higher arc of fire?) and personally think it could use a bigger AEO suppression, not sure how big it is but the sturm isn't a great option atm, it alright but not worth locking out the kt (if you wanted to get him out).

JLI, everyone kinda have already said what I would say about them.

Assault engineers could have a 20 second cooldown before first deployment. People talk about their flamethrowers, I use to go armour co to counter garrisons so I dont really see the problem with their flamethrowers.

Everything else seems good to me.

You could remove the gun toggle on the KV-8, then turn it into a 13 CP call-in like the Churchill Crocodile. They fill similar roles.

Yeah kv8 is very tricky.

In teamgames its brutal. You kill every pak / raketen atm

A) nerf the damage of the fire
or
B) reverse the rangebuff

Imo all flamers vehicles should lose their DOT, drive and spray is not a good method for using these vehicles. That should come as an ability.

The KV-8 should be a shock unit and not a unit that can fight PzIVs, thus it should be cheaper.

I would also consider to become available in two way as call in unit with premium or build-able from T4 for discount. Then the unit would be better timed across all modes.

You could remove the gun toggle on the KV-8, then turn it into a 13 CP call-in like the Churchill Crocodile. They fill similar roles.

Soviets already have IS-2/ISU-152/KV-2 as super heavies last thing they need is another Super heavy.

The idea of continuously buffing units to make them more attractive is counter productive, there is allot of room for these unit if they timing and price is right without being buffed.

...
Sturmtiger is the weirdest one out of everything to me. Main problem is hitting damaged terrain (maybe a higher arc of fire?) and personally think it could use a bigger AEO suppression, not sure how big it is but the sturm isn't a great option atm, it alright but not worth locking out the kt (if you wanted to get him out).
...

Sturm Tiger could easily be turned into a cheaper less lethal anti emplacement role vehicle and then the KT/ST could be removed.

Competing with a KT with HE munition will always be problematic.